Friend Tony K Harper

Friend TDX

Friend TDX


Friend TDX:


We don't have the ammo testing center issues resolved yet.....


But................


If you don't mind I'll pose a couple questions for you anyway.....

(By the way you don't have to answer, but if you do there will be no rebuttal from me....)


The subject:


IR-50.....which ranks third behind ARA and PSL in attendance at Big National Events.



TDX, IR-50 is a dichotomy today in the world of RFBR, in this respect:


It has both the "luckiest" and the "most difficult" classes in all of RFBR.


What I mean by "luckiest" refers to the scoring of 3-Gun and Unlimited IR-50......

What I mean by "most difficult" refers to 10-SHOT.


There's probably not a RFBR shooter on the planet that doesn't know how I feel about IR-50 3-Gun and Unlimited scoring........



Now for the "most difficult" discipline in all of RFBR, 10-SHOT.


I love it.......always have.....


But now after a few years of 10-SHOT competition I have two issues I'd like for you to comment about, if you so desire.


Number 1...


In my opinion the 10 score is a lottery pick......


It taints the baddest, pure accuracy RFBR discipline on Earth with a sense of the mickey mouse side of RFBR.

(And to boot, the 10 score is a lottery pick which is left up to the judgement of human beings to actually determine it.)



Tony, we do not have realistic 4 score accuracy yet.......4 x 25 equals 100.....or the same as a 250 x 25X card.


And we most certainly do not have 6 score accuracy yet.....6 x 25 equals 150......25 wipe outs.....

And we most certainly don't have now or ever will have 10 score accuracy...so why inject a mickey mouse lottery pick into the most difficult pure accuracy game in all of RFBR?




Number 2.....


TDX, the biggest problem with 10-SHOT is that it is so difficult that it drives more shooters away than it brings in.

______________________


TDX if you care to, please comment on what I call the lottery pick 10 score......

And..............

My contention that 10-SHOT is simply too much of a challenge for most IR-50 shooters accustomed to the scoring of 3-Gun and Unlimited, causing it to drive more shooters away from it, than it brings in....


Thank you....


Your pistol fool friend, BC

__________________


PS:


TDX, again if you care to comment there will be no rebuttal from me.......whatever you say will stand.....

TDX, I want to add something...

Bill Calfee said:

Friend TDX


Friend TDX:


We don't have the ammo testing center issues resolved yet.....


But................


If you don't mind I'll pose a couple questions for you anyway.....

(By the way you don't have to answer, but if you do there will be no rebuttal from me....)


The subject:


IR-50.....which ranks third behind ARA and PSL in attendance at Big National Events.



TDX, IR-50 is a dichotomy today in the world of RFBR, in this respect:


It has both the "luckiest" and the "most difficult" classes in all of RFBR.


What I mean by "luckiest" refers to the scoring of 3-Gun and Unlimited IR-50......

What I mean by "most difficult" refers to 10-SHOT.


There's probably not a RFBR shooter on the planet that doesn't know how I feel about IR-50 3-Gun and Unlimited scoring........



Now for the "most difficult" discipline in all of RFBR, 10-SHOT.


I love it.......always have.....


But now after a few years of 10-SHOT competition I have two issues I'd like for you to comment about, if you so desire.


Number 1...


In my opinion the 10 score is a lottery pick......


It taints the baddest, pure accuracy RFBR discipline on Earth with a sense of the mickey mouse side of RFBR.

(And to boot, the 10 score is a lottery pick which is left up to the judgement of human beings to actually determine it.)



Tony, we do not have realistic 4 score accuracy yet.......4 x 25 equals 100.....or the same as a 250 x 25X card.


And we most certainly do not have 6 score accuracy yet.....6 x 25 equals 150......25 wipe outs.....

And we most certainly don't have now or ever will have 10 score accuracy...so why inject a mickey mouse lottery pick into the most difficult pure accuracy game in all of RFBR?




Number 2.....


TDX, the biggest problem with 10-SHOT is that it is so difficult that it drives more shooters away than it brings in.

______________________


TDX if you care to, please comment on what I call the lottery pick 10 score......

And..............

My contention that 10-SHOT is simply too much of a challenge for most IR-50 shooters accustomed to the scoring of 3-Gun and Unlimited, causing it to drive more shooters away from it, than it brings in....


Thank you....


Your pistol fool friend, BC

__________________


PS:


TDX, again if you care to comment there will be no rebuttal from me.......whatever you say will stand.....

Click to expand...

_____________________________



TDX, I want to add something...


10-SHOT is my favorite discipline......because it is the most pure accuracy demanding of all disciplines...


But I still hold my opinion on the two subjects I asked you to comment about....if you desire to.


What I'm trying to say is, these two issues do not keep 10-SHOT from being my favorite discipline...


Your pistol fool friend, BC

Bill Calfee said:

_____________________________



TDX, I want to add something...


10-SHOT is my favorite discipline......because it is the most pure accuracy demanding of all disciplines...


But I still hold my opinion on the two subjects I asked you to comment about....if you desire to.


What I'm trying to say is, these two issues do not keep 10-SHOT from being my favorite discipline...


Your pistol fool friend, BC

Click to expand...

Bill,

The IR 50/50 three gun format was copied from the NBRSA centerfire format.

At that time most of the guys that competed in benchrest centerfire or rimfire were gunsmiths or hobbyist that built most if not all of their own equipment.

That included the rifle, the rest and everything else that goes with it. These guys and gals had a greater commitment to the sport.

Today in RFBR most shooters buy their equipment ready made. They figure tuning the rifle, finding ammo, and traveling to the matches is enough to occupy their available free time.

It is a different shooter than it was years ago.

The luck factor in the target has been there since the beginning. Some people believe that is a good thing.

If the best shooter with the best equipment won every match it wouldn't take long for him or her to be shooting by themselves.

As it turns out we seen in the other disciplines that is not a problem. No one dominates for long so that isn't a valid concern.

A few years ago a push was made to change the scoring to 275 scoring. (Points added for each X) but the push was met with a lot of resistance and never came to anything.

I doubt it will ever be changed to much water under the bridge.

Wayne Wills created IR 50/50 10 shot and he certainly made sure it was the most difficult of all the RFBR games.

You are right the "10" shot is a lottery win. Although 10 shot was designed to be difficult perhaps it has been taken too far.

I have enclosed two pics of shots that were 6s.

In my opinion should have been 10s. By rule they are not.

The rule says all the white inside the 10 ring must be removed. I believe the rule should be the shot must be inside the black 10 ring. In that case these would be 10s.

You would be surprised at how many shots are down graded when reviewed by the scoring committee.

It is almost like judges don't want shots to be 10's because they want to protect the difficulty of the scoring system.

In fact near perfect shots should be rewarded to keep the "you are never out of it"

factor that the 10 shot game brings to the match.

TKH

TKH,

We shot our first and only 10 shot last year. While we are not at the same level as a lot of the shooters in this sport, I am with you, if you dead center the shot you leave a little white. The only way I know to get a 10 is with a bigger bullet. LOL

Look forward to seeing you agian this year.

Friend TDX

Friend TDX


Friend TDX:


Tony, what do you think would happen if 10-SHOT were the IR-50 segment of the triple crown instead of Unlimited?


Again, no rebuttal from me......


Your pistol fool friend, BC


________________________________


PS:


No rebuttal from me, Tony....


But........


I think it would produce the most "pure accuracy" triple crown in the history of the triple crown...

I ain't going to be able to sleep tonight just thinking about it....


By the way....


I don't believe the ARA and PSL shooters would run from 10-SHOT like a lot of IR-50 folks do....

Bill Calfee said:

Friend TDX


Friend TDX:


Tony, what do you think would happen if 10-SHOT were the IR-50 segment of the triple crown instead of Unlimited?


Again, no rebuttal from me......


Your pistol fool friend, BC


________________________________


PS:


No rebuttal from me, Tony....


But........


I think it would produce the most "pure accuracy" triple crown in the history of the triple crown...

I ain't going to be able to sleep tonight just thinking about it....


By the way....


I don't believe the ARA and PSL shooters would run from 10-SHOT like a lot of IR-50 folks do....

Click to expand...

Bill,

That is an excellent idea!

Shooters now fear the IR 50/50 unlimited portion because the effect one bad shot can have on your overall results.

Using the IR 50/50 10 shot target would take away that fear, and replace it with the most demanding and fun targets of the match.

Plus, it would introduce a lot of new shooters to 10 shot.

I understand what you mean about ARA and PSL shooters not running from the 10 shot target, but on the other hand they certainly have not been knocking the doors down to try it either.

Perhaps this would make the Triple Crown an overall better shoot, as well as promoting the 10 shot class of IR 50/50.

That is a really good idea. Maybe Paul will give it some thought.

TKH

Friend TDX

Tony K Harper said:

Bill,

That is an excellent idea!

Shooters now fear the IR 50/50 unlimited portion because the effect one bad shot can have on your overall results.

Using the IR 50/50 10 shot target would take away that fear, and replace it with the most demanding and fun targets of the match.

Plus, it would introduce a lot of new shooters to 10 shot.

I understand what you mean about ARA and PSL shooters not running from the 10 shot target, but on the other hand they certainly have not been knocking the doors down to try it either.

Perhaps this would make the Triple Crown an overall better shoot, as well as promoting the 10 shot class of IR 50/50.

That is a really good idea. Maybe Paul will give it some thought.

TKH

Click to expand...

___________________________________________



Friend TDX:


This is not a rebuttal, just some comments......


I laid in bed last evening and thought about 10-SHOT replacing Unlimited at the triple crown...


Tony, I'm going to make a prediction here.......


If the triple crown goes to 10-SHOT, in my opinion, the triple crown will become the No 1 Big National Event in all of RFBR.


It will surpass the St Louis ARA National in stature..........the St Louis ARA National is the No 1 Big National Event in RFBR today, in stature.

And it will also surpass the ARA Indoor National, which is the No 1 "pure accuracy" Big National Event in RFBR today.


Tony, one more comment....


RFBR has been the same-old, same-old for several years now.......


Adding 10-SHOT to the triple crown would be a tremendous shot-in-the-arm that RFBR can use today.


I've got my fingers crossed that triple crown goes to 10-SHOT......


Because 10-SHOT is the baddest "pure accuracy demanding" RFBR discipline ever created...


And the absolute most important function of RFBR is to advance rimfire accuracy...


Your pistol fool friend, BC

Just imagine 10-SHOT at the triple crown...

Just imagine 10-SHOT at the triple crown...


CYA accuracy fool friends:


Just imagine 10-SHOT at the triple crown...


The ramifications are almost unimaginable....


OK, thinking out loud.....


Two triple crowns..........the Indoor triple crown and the Outdoor triple crown.


Since Kettlefoot has a new indoor facility.....


Here's what the world of Big Time RFBR would have:


A pure, unadulterated shooters triple crown, the Outdoor.....


And a 100% no holds barred, if you got it bring it, pure rimfire accuracy triple crown, the Indoor...


Your pistol fool friend, BC


_____________________


PS:

With 10-SHOT as part of the triple crown, no one is going to beat you with inferior equipment or inferior shooting talent because you drew a bad bullet....

They're going to have to beat you straight up.....

Bill Calfee said:

Just imagine 10-SHOT at the triple crown...


CYA accuracy fool friends:


Just imagine 10-SHOT at the triple crown...


The ramifications are almost unimaginable....


OK, thinking out loud.....


Two triple crowns..........the Indoor triple crown and the Outdoor triple crown.


Since Kettlefoot has a new indoor facility.....


Here's what the world of Big Time RFBR would have:


A pure, unadulterated shooters triple crown, the Outdoor.....


And a 100% no holds barred, if you got it bring it, pure rimfire accuracy triple crown, the Indoor...


Your pistol fool friend, BC


_____________________


PS:

With 10-SHOT as part of the triple crown, no one is going to beat you with inferior equipment or inferior shooting talent because you drew a bad bullet....

They're going to have to beat you straight up.....

Click to expand...

Bill,

I agree 10 shot would be an overall improvement to the Triple Crown.

Paul and Jason are the ones to make the decision and I see neither have joined the thread.

There is always a tendency to not change anything, but change is necessary for improvement.

Maybe they think the 10 shot scoring is too hard. Many thought that when 10 shot was first announced but it has not been a problem.

The good thing is Wayne Wills the inventor of 10 shot will be on hand at the match.

Maybe we just need more people to encourage Paul and Jason?

TKH

Another question, TDX

Tony K Harper said:

Bill,

I agree 10 shot would be an overall improvement to the Triple Crown.

Paul and Jason are the ones to make the decision and I see neither have joined the thread.

There is always a tendency to not change anything, but change is necessary for improvement.

Maybe they think the 10 shot scoring is too hard. Many thought that when 10 shot was first announced but it has not been a problem.

The good thing is Wayne Wills the inventor of 10 shot will be on hand at the match.

Maybe we just need more people to encourage Paul and Jason?

TKH

Click to expand...

_________________________________


Another question, TDX:


Friend TDX, I highlighted two of your comments, the first in bold red and the second in bold orange.


You are 100% spot on with both of those comments......



Now another question, a most serious question, if you don't mind responding to it......

( By the way, the answer to this question is exactly why 10-SHOT should replace IR-50 Unlimited at the triple crown)


Why is the IR-50 segment of the triple crown always shot last?


Your pistol fool friend, BC

Bill Calfee said:

_________________________________


Another question, TDX:


Friend TDX, I highlighted two of your comments, the first in bold red and the second in bold orange.


You are 100% spot on with both of those comments......



Now another question, a most serious question, if you don't mind responding to it......

( By the way, the answer to this question is exactly why 10-SHOT should replace IR-50 Unlimited at the triple crown)


Why is the IR-50 segment of the triple crown always shot last?


Your pistol fool friend, BC

Click to expand...

Bill,

I don't know who or how it was decided to shoot the IR 50/50 unlimited portion last. But I can assure you it is the most feared portion of the competition.

Not because it is so hard, but because you can become a victim.

If you have done well in the first two portions and are in a position to win, the IR 50/50 portion can undo it all.

It only takes one bad shot. Doesn't matter if it is your fault or just a bad round, it can ruin your whole day.

10 shot would take away that factor and make the competition one of pure accuracy.

It may be too late to change it this year but maybe if enough people push for it maybe it could happen next year.

I think this could give both IR 50/50 10 -shot, and the Triple Crown a boost. We will just have to see what Paul and Jason say.

TKH

Friend TDX

Tony K Harper said:

Bill,

I don't know who or how it was decided to shoot the IR 50/50 unlimited portion last. But I can assure you it is the most feared portion of the competition.

Not because it is so hard, but because you can become a victim.

If you have done well in the first two portions and are in a position to win, the IR 50/50 portion can undo it all.

It only takes one bad shot. Doesn't matter if it is your fault or just a bad round, it can ruin your whole day.

10 shot would take away that factor and make the competition one of pure accuracy.

It may be too late to change it this year but maybe if enough people push for it maybe it could happen next year.

I think this could give both IR 50/50 10 -shot, and the Triple Crown a boost. We will just have to see what Paul and Jason say.

TKH

Click to expand...

_____________________________________



Friend TDX:


I highlighted a couple of your comments which are exactly spot on...



What 10-SHOT does that no other discipline does:


With 10-SHOT you're never out of it....if you can bring it...


Tony, ARA and PSL work off the high end of their scoring potential...


You can't shoot a 2000 score at the TC in either ARA or PSL and come back......


If you aren't kicking out at least 2350's, and up, in both ARA and PSL you're finished.......


You kick out a 2000 ARA or PSL score and even if you finish with a 2500 you've still lost....


A 2250 agg in PSL or ARA at the TC isn't going to cut it....


Now for one of the beautiful aspects of 10-SHOT:


10-SHOT works off the low end of the scoring potential....because it is so "pure accuracy" demanding.

Sub 100 scores are commonplace........sub 90 scores are commonplace....


You could shoot an equivalent 2000 ARA or PSL score in 10-SHOT and if you can bring it you can come back.


You sit down for your last 10-SHOT card, no matter how far out of the lead you might be, and it's just you on that bench with a brand new target in front of you....


If you've got it in you, and can bring it, right then, you can still win the thing...


Your pistol fool friend, BC


____________________


PS:

TDX, how many times have you seen shooters kicked out a bad target, then put away their good ammo and just go through the motions for the rest of the match...

Cause they're out of it.......


That doesn't happen with 10-SHOT cause if you've got it in you, and like I said can bring it, you can still win the thing....

Copy/paste of Tonys message:

"A few years ago a push was made to change the scoring to 275 scoring. (Points added for each X) but the push was met with a lot of resistance and never came to anything".

Whats wrong with this? Sounds VERY good idea.

BR, Timo

Friend gun fool Timo

Timo said:

Copy/paste of Tonys message:

"A few years ago a push was made to change the scoring to 275 scoring. (Points added for each X) but the push was met with a lot of resistance and never came to anything".

Whats wrong with this? Sounds VERY good idea.

BR, Timo

Click to expand...

____________________________________________


Friend gun fool Timo:


It is a VERY good idea.......going to 275 scoring......raw score plus X's combined.


Some IR-50 history is in order, here....


Back almost 30 years ago when IR-50 first started, the 10 1/2 and 13 1/2 classes were being won with 240 scores, low 240 scores, or even less...


Sporta winning scores were in the 230's or less....

And a 250 was so rare that it actually meant something.....


So a bad round was simply lost in the inaccuracy of the times......

__________________


Not so today........a bad round can cause you to get beat by someone with inferior equipment and shooting ability...


Another way to look at it, is this:


IR-50's antiquated scoring system has not kept up with the amazing accuracy advancement we've seen since the start of the 2000's.....


Which means IR-50 will always be third in popularity, and prestige, behind ARA/PSL...


Your pistol fool friend, BC

Our I.R.50/50 RFBR shooters here said also that this 275 scoring is good idea.

Maybe it comes official here soon and hopely also all over the world....

Joking: When our ammo makers stop putting one flyer / 50 pieces box or so, we can change this back-.

BR, Timo

Friend gun fool Timo

Timo said:

Our I.R.50/50 RFBR shooters here said also that this 275 scoring is good idea.

Maybe it comes official here soon and hopely also all over the world....

Joking: When our ammo makers stop putting one flyer / 50 pieces box or so, we can change this back-.

BR, Timo

Click to expand...

_____________________________________



Friend gun fool Timo:


Your comments in bold orange...



You are exactly right.....


Either IR-50 goes to 275 scoring, or it will always be third place behind ARA/PSL...


And the same for the world RFBR organizations....


The world RFBR organizations will never be truly respected on the same level as RFBR here in the US until they go to 275 scoring...



It is what it is............and only IR-50 here in the US and the world organizations can change it...


Your pistol fool friend, BC

Friend gun fool Timo

Timo said:

Our I.R.50/50 RFBR shooters here said also that this 275 scoring is good idea.

Maybe it comes official here soon and hopely also all over the world....

Joking: When our ammo makers stop putting one flyer / 50 pieces box or so, we can change this back-.

BR, Timo

Click to expand...

__________________________________



Friend gun fool Timo:



Per your interesting comment in bold orange....


Yes, either IR-50 and the World RFBR organizations go to 275 scoring or the ammo companies eliminate the flyers, like you jokingly said.......


Or...............


They simply will not have the same level of respect as ARA/PSL.......


Only IR-50 and the World RFBR organizations can make this change to 275 scoring to eliminate their antiquated scoring system that the advancement of rimfire accuracy outgrew years ago...


I can't make the change for them, or I most certainly would.....


Because I've got too much pride to run behind any one RFBR organization, let alone run behind two.


Your pistol fool friend, BC

It's finally time....

It's finally time....


It's finally time for IR-50 and the World RFBR organizations to become equal to ARA and PSL, not run third behind them.



Only IR-50 and the World RFBR organizations can make the change to 275 scoring to eliminate their antiquated scoring system that the advancement of rimfire accuracy outgrew years ago...


I can't make the change for them, or I most certainly would.....


Because I've got too much pride to run behind any one RFBR organization, let alone run behind two if I could do anything about it.


Your pistol fool friend, BC