What wins on Sunday................

W

wsmallwood

Member
It's an old idea right? If the professionals drive a super car with a plastic Malibu body, the Malibu will sell later. Simple marketing ploy. It's okay actually since people are that stupid and the professionals are separated from the amatuers.

However, as this applies to RFBR, the ammo companies are quickly creating a class of professional shooters by "sponsoring" them. Giving them ammo etc. If they're not giving the the best then the ammo companies are stupid. I assume they're not stupid. Whatever else is a factor the biggest factor in the game is ammo. Everybody that's shot quite a bit knows that. There's no professional separation. Regular shooters, working to find ammo shoot side by side with little chance.

So, now we're seeing switching allegiances and ammo company stickers stuck all over equipment. The only reasons a successful shooter would switch ammo is if thier normal brand goes South (it hasn't) or they get stuff free. In my opinion, most things are about money. So have your picture taken with the ammo company sticker and make the rest of the shooters beleive that they need to use that ammo.

Smart move right? Wrong. It creates a class of favored shooters shooting side by side with a class that has to work to find stuff that works, if they can. So where does it leave that class? It leaves them out. Where will they go? They will leave. It's another erosion of the sport.

If you can't see this happening you're either blind or in oblivion. But it's happening.

Maybe an ammo company owning the rights to a discipline that worked well with a board of directors and then worked well with a single owner is not a good idea. It's a circle with a dot. You can't copyright that. Maybe it's time to move away from ammo company ownership and start a new discipline. There are almost no barriers to entry.
 
Last edited:
I guess there's too many delicate sensibilities out there. Might offend a friend. More people than me know this is a problem. The ammo companies can't see it or they don't care.

I guess what it really boils down to is less and less care about the shooting games. That's been obvious for years. There's some good people getting in but they won't stay. Nobody will stay when the odds are stacked more and more against them. Why should they?
 
level playing field?

Wally, is the ammo that the team shooters get from lots that are available to all competitors? I thought there was something in the rules about ammo being readily available for sale. Being a beginner I can see where this discussion would be frowned upon by many, kind of a have vs have nots sort of deal. If everyone is shooting ammo that is available for purchase I do not have a problem with who gets ammo or who is on what team
 
"Available for Purchase" means you or I or anyone can buy the same flavor. In other words you can't make it yourself but Tenex is Tenex is Tenex to use an example. However, we know that not all ammo is created equal. The game is decided by who has the best ammo. For the most part there is little inequality in everything else.

So, no it's not teams. One ammo company allows it's so called "pro" shooters to test ammo and buy it before you are allowed to even know it's available. Key word there is "Pro" shooters. Another gives ammo to its sponsored shooters on a varying basis. If you simply promote the company and may not be a top shooter you'll get a case of whatever. No problem there. They just get free ammo for the promotion, may be good, may be bad. If you're a top shooter you will be allowed to test some of what the company considers to be premium quality and get that part for free and part for a discount. Can you compete side by side with that? I can't.

There's been sponsored shooters as long as I can recall. But not to the extent there are now and there's more and more. I recall seeing an Eley representative give two cases of ammo to a shooter at the ARA Nationals once. That shooter won the Nationals in a historical fashion. Now, I don't know that he was using that ammo because at that time, my understanding was it was random lots anyway. But not now. The ammo companies are having a proxy war and creating winners. Sorry, but you can't compete against that. It happens eventually in every amateur sport that requires quite a bit of spending to compete. The result is always the same. Those who have no chance to compete simply don't.

Sponsored shooters should be in classes. I've never been a proponent of classes or the "level playing field". If someone works harder, spends more, and gains an advantage, then so be it. In whatever way, they earned it. This is different and getting worse. It's simply about money. Why now since RFBR has always been a small segment of the market? No Olympic sales is part of it. The other part is probably RFBR has the highest precision standards, so that's where people look.

There won't be classes. So in as an alternative I would ask that ammo companies disclose the sponsored shooters so at least you'll know who you're shooting against. That won't happen either.

I get ammo companies trying to boost sales, but this is not promoting the sport.
 
Last edited:
Every single Eley Team shooter shoots ammo that they got from the test tunnel which is available to EVERYONE.

Actually a couple of them just got ammo that came into Zanders because we were low in the Test tunnel, they tested it and received their ammo, and some bought more on their own.

In no situation will anyone receive ammo that is not available to everyone.

I don't know how Lapua does it but this is the way Eley does it in the USA
 
Last edited:
no problem

if the ammo is what is available to everyone then I don't see where sponsorship will hurt the sport I did however hear that 2 people have tested the midas that has yet to be put up for sale
 
Paul Tolvstad said:
Every single Eley Team shooter shoots ammo that they got from the test tunnel which is available to EVERYONE.

Actually a couple of them just got ammo that came into Zanders because we were low in the Test tunnel, they tested it and received their ammo, and some bought more on their own.

In no situation will anyone receive ammo that is not available to everyone.

I don't know how Lapua does it but this is the way Eley does it in the USA
Click to expand...

Nobody, or at least not me, is talking about teams. That would not be a concern.

Yes the ammo, brand and flavor, is available to everyone, there's no question. That part is deceiving but not an issue. The ammo being provided to sponsored shooters is not available to everyone but everyone can buy the same brand and same flavor, just not the same precision. Obviously even the ammo in the tunnel is not available to EVERYONE. it's limited. But there's enough Tenex, Match, Team, Midas, CenterX, etc to meet the demand. So in that respect the ammo is available to everyone. Like I said it's deceiving.

I can understand a new shooter not understanding the danger to the sport of widespread sponsorships and artificial advantages. They will when they chase the ammo and find that the really good ammo is very difficult to find and you can't win without it, but I don't understand seasoned shooters not understanding the problem. But if you're new just go to the local gun shop and buy the best they have then show up and shoot. You'll get the idea.

I've only mentioned Tenex and Midas to stress a point. No individual companies were harmed in the making of these posts.
 
Interesting thread... I would agree that it would be a problem except that I believe a "killer" lot is barrel specific. It may shoot "well" in several barrels but if you want killer you have to test it in your barrel and your barrel is not the same as any other.

A couple of weeks ago I tested at Lapua, 35+ different lots. They had 5 lots of X-Act, 8 of M+ and a bunch of Center-X. I found two lots that shot well out of this barrel and prior to testing there I had run 15 or so lots that I already had against each other to select my best ammo as a standard to test against at Lapua. Most of my lots were Tenex, some Match and three M+ and a Center-X (one of these M+ lots shoots killer out of another barrel). The two lots at Lapua both shot much better than anything else I had - including the killer M+. Coincidentally, the next day, Zander's has a new batch of Tenex in. I look at all the new lots, run the numbers through the analyser and order two boxes each of the six best lots from the analyser test barrels. I had purchased one box of the ammo I just ordered at Lapua (they have to ship the orders now) so I tested it against the 6 best Tenex lots from Zanders. None of the Tenex would shoot with the Lapua. Interestingly enough, the best shooting Tenex lot was not out of the three lowest scoring lots on the analyser. In addition, none of X-Act lots shot well in this barrel at the test center.

I have a case + of Center-X that shot really well out of another rifle I had. I run it in this barrel and it finishes dead last of 10 different lots. The killer M+ that works so well in my other barrel finished 6 or 7th in a 10 lot test I ran in this barrel. Yet, the winner lot always shows best when run in multiple lot tests - in this barrel. My experience has been no two barrels are alike and if you want killer it cannot be tested in another barrel to make that determination. The point I am trying to make is that, from my experience, it doesn't matter that they got first dibs on recently received ammo because your barrel is different and I am convinced shooting the same lots through two different barrels will always show a different winning lot for each.

Anyway, my two cents worth.

Best,

Steve
 
For the most part I agree. But I sure would like to have four or five or ten lots to test that I know I can get and have already been vetted in some barrels. I think it would give me an advantage.
 
wsmallwood said:
For the most part I agree. But I sure would like to have four or five or ten lots to test that I know I can get and have already been vetted in some barrels. I think it would give me an advantage.
Click to expand...

Wallace,

Is that not what the Eley Analyser site is? Multiple lots each shot out of 4 different barrels with the results shown in about every way you can.

Unfortunately, I have never found any of their results to correlate with my barrels. Like I stated above, in the last batch of Tenex, out of six different lots none of the top three shot best in my barrel. If someone has figured out a way to, with certainty, discern a lot of killer ammo from the Eley analyser testing, I would love to hear about it.

What I am mulling over in my mind is something someone stated in another thread on this site. If you have 10 barrels can you randomly buy a lot of ammo and figure it will shoot killer in one of the 10?

Assuming the ammo is barrel specific, the best bet is the ammo centers - testing multiple lots in your barrel. If you can test with your gun like you shoot it (in your stock), I think it is the best we have available to us.

Best,

Steve
 
Az_Speed said:
Wallace,

Is that not what the Eley Analyser site is? Multiple lots each shot out of 4 different barrels with the results shown in about every way you can.

Unfortunately, I have never found any of their results to correlate with my barrels. Like I stated above, in the last batch of Tenex, out of six different lots none of the top three shot best in my barrel. If someone has figured out a way to, with certainty, discern a lot of killer ammo from the Eley analyser testing, I would love to hear about it.

What I am mulling over in my mind is something someone stated in another thread on this site. If you have 10 barrels can you randomly buy a lot of ammo and figure it will shoot killer in one of the 10?

Assuming the ammo is barrel specific, the best bet is the ammo centers - testing multiple lots in your barrel. If you can test with your gun like you shoot it (in your stock), I think it is the best we have available to us.

Best,

Steve
Click to expand...

That is what the anal liar is supposed to be. Point is, and we will use that only as an example, what if there are better lots that you never see and that you have no opportunity to purchase but sponsored shooters do or are given or even discounted. So use whatever, they will still beat you. If that was the case then has the "available to everyone" been violated. Absolutely not and I defended that years ago. It only says that the ammunition must be available for everyone, not the lot number. And obviously that can't be available for everyone, it's limited. So, I don't think that would ever be expected. But ammo companies have been capable of determining their best ammo for years, it's not new. Nothing says they have to publish it all or any for that matter.

I'll give you an example of what I mean. The University of Kentucky shooting team used to be one of the best in the nation. They may still be or they may not even have a team now, I don't know. But I knew one of their shooters several years ago and asked how they chose ammo. Now obviously, he's not paying for it, but the University might. He said that a specific ammo company would send two bricks of five lots to test. They would test them and all decide on the best lots rated 1 to 5 then no more than two lots would be chosen. I asked about the five lots and he said they never needed more to test but might need more of those specific lots to decide. In that particular year only one was chosen, they were in the final of the National Championship against ARMY, an I think UK won but don't recall for sure. So it must have worked. I assumed that nobody could get any of that ammo but I got the lot #s; called around and glory be one distributor had three bricks each of two of those lots and it was all very good. I asked if there was any more and he said that was all they sent to the US that he knew of. So obviously, the schools got premium ammo and that's fine because it's like Nike and Adidas, they're just having a proxy war. It's a marketing ploy. However, when you apply the same theory to a sport made up of just regular people who have no access to that premium ammo shooting against those who do, it's a disaster waiting to happen.

In my opinion the schools would pay for the ammo. It would be too much to give away for every school I would think. Maybe some didn't who knows, but that doesn't matter it can be done on an individual level. But think about the key. Five lots and that was enough and that's probably standard at most schools. That stands in stark contrast to the baskets of test ammo we've seen where none were good enough. You think the schools received ammo known to be better than even the so called "best"?
 
Again

All of the ammo is available to everyone.

All the universities either come to test or send in the rifles to test at our test facility. Each team BUYS all their own ammo.

The AMU the same and USA shooting the same.

The playing field is level

Wally, all you need to do is send your rifle to the test tunnel every time we get new test lots, which is about 4 to 6 times a year, and you can test and buy the same ammo everyone else on Team whoever/whatever is buying.

If you don't believe me, you might wanna start wearing your tinfoil hat to bed at night ;)
 
Last edited:
I have been to Lapua right after the some of the colleges and military shooting teams have been there. I didn't know that before going so it was bad timing on my part but I do know they purchased lots for specific rifles and it wasn't all the same lot. The case of Center-X I have was a lot they chose for one of their rifles and I think they bought 2 cases of it for that rifle. It shot well in my rifle at that time so I purchased a case + but have yet to have another rifle it shoots well in. It sounded to me like they were purchasing ammo just like everyone else although perhaps not at the same price. I don't know how they do at the Eley test center having never been there.

I plan on testing several more times at the Lapua testing center which may give me more insight. BTW, I do recall testing one time against a control lot I had and they had nothing that shot as well. I didn't purchase anything that time. The test centers are not perfect but I think they offer a valuable service, large selection of available ammo and considering everything they are reasonably priced.

Best regards,

Steve
 
Paul Tolvstad said:
All of the ammo is available to everyone.

All the universities either come to test or send in the rifles to test at our test facility. Each team BUYS all their own ammo.

The AMU the same and USA shooting the same.

The playing field is level

Wally, all you need to do is send your rifle to the test tunnel every time we get new test lots, which is about 4 to 6 times a year, and you can test and buy the same ammo everyone else on Team whoever/whatever is buying.

If you don't believe me, you might wanna start wearing your tinfoil hat to bed at night ;)
Click to expand...

Been doing that for years.


There was no test tunnel when I was lucky enough to buy pre-vetted ammo.

Now to the other part, I beg to disagree. It's impossible and if you can't see this you may need to get a tinfoil hat and hope somethng tunes in.

But I'll try. Let's say I do send my rifle to the test tunnel and five more (you can change the number infinitely) rifles arrive at the same time. You test them and one lot # is head and shoulders above the rest for all five rifles. I think you say that you guarantee the ability to buy 1 case of that ammo. Let's say all five want a case but you only have three. You've said you will sell at least a case of the best tested. You're short. Simply put even me and those other five shooters don't have access to the same ammo. But I can turn around and buy the next best in the same brand and model. That's the rule, the lot is not included, so the rule is met. Still obviously the ammo is not available to everybody. It's called limitation. Need that hat yet?

But I got second best and it will show. By the way how do you decide out of those six shooters, who gets the ammo? I know I would be first because of my sterling personality but what about the rest? You could say first arrived but they came at the same time. Most likely first off the truck is not first arrived, maybe neither is the last. So you filp a coin, go by alphabetical order or best shooter. Or do you simply limit the availabilty. If you do two things remain true. 1. You still have to choose, and 2. All shooters did not have access to the same ammo. I don't really care but it's something to consider.

It would be interesting to know if I have access to the same ammo that the universities and the ASU do? That would mean that I could actually purchase it as they were considering it? Can I do that? Do I even know of the lots (availbility only) they're testing and can I buy those at the same time it's being tested. In other words are those lots public knowledge immediately.

So the point remains the same. I'm sure the Eley test tunnel is run on the up and up and is a fine place I hope to visit someday. But the tetst facility is not the company. And I'm not specifically mentioning Eley or any other company, but there are still representatives handling sponsored shooters and their ammo. That's the point.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom