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Thread: More notes to myself

  1. #1

    More notes to myself

    More notes to myself


    CYA friends:


    When AD posted some computer pictures of his new V-3 XP trigger, a bunch of ideas went through my head..


    _______________________________


    CYA friends, all the years that Ralph Bond converted the factory XP trigger to his fine 2 ounce version, he was stuck with using the factory trigger housing.


    AD is not handicapped with this problem.......


    I see he's already extended the housing at the rear, where the third lever pivot pin is located.......



    Ralph bond had this pivot pin located as close to the rear of the housing as possible, without actually breaking through the end of the housing with the pin hole.


    So AD has corrected this.......



    ___________________________



    Also, the factory XP trigger, even some of the rifle triggers, were made from a U shaped stamping, which caused the trigger housing to sometimes collapse at the top when the trigger retaining pins were driven through, which bound up the transfer bar...


    Actually, even the factory Remington triggers like for the Mod 700 rifle have this same issue.


    So normal practice for installing a factory Remington trigger, is to use a small brass drift and tap the sides of the housing back in place....


    You do this by removing the breech bolt which allows you to get to the top of the trigger in the tang.




    AD has eliminated this by using bushings for the retaining pins to go through, like the Jewel trigger, and the FF and B&A.



    ____________________________


    Here's some notes to myself.......I'm sure AD is fully aware of these......


    __________________________________


    Here's the cut away view of the internals of the trigger......


    In this picture it looks like the transfer bar is making contact on top of the third lever for several thousandths of an inch...


    Course if you note, the tip of the third lever is not resting on top of the L shaped sear.......which is correct in the un-cocked position....


    So when the bolt is brought to battery, and the tip of the third lever sits down on top of the L shaped trigger sear, only the extreme left end of the transfer bar will be making contact with the top of the third lever..





    __________________________________________________


    In this picture I've redrawn the bottom of the transfer bar so as to indicate that only the extreme left end is making contact with the top of the third lever...






    ____________________________



    In this picture I've drawn the arc that the third lever makes around the pivot pin, and the arc the transfer bar makes around its pivot pin.



    I did this to illustrate, that since AD has moved the rear of the housing back, there's room to actually make the contact point of the transfer bar even closer to the arc of the third lever, which would lighten the pull weight even further than that of the original Bond trigger.







    CYA friends, what I probably should do is to shut up...


    I still can't believe AD is willing to do this trigger, and his V-3 XP action.....and give the world a MD-PAS center grip RFBR pistol...


    So I'm still in shock........


    But man, since AD is willing, and has the stuff to do it with, I'm going to keep pondering and making notes to myself, until he tells me that I've pushed too far.





    I can't begin to tell you folks how cited I am about this thing.....and I ain't the only one.


    Your friend, BC
    Last edited by Bill Calfee; 2 Weeks Ago at 08:00 PM.

  2. #2

    An opportunity

    Hi Bill

    Could now be an opportunity for Anthony to incorporate another improvement into the trigger.

    And that is to incorporate a 90 degree engagement with the firing pin and thus remove the upward force and movement on the rear of the bolt.

    I know this is not a simple thing as it would be a totally different layout with a vertical engagement leaver with the firing pin.

    But after all it is not simple we are after but the best accuracy.

    Regards
    Graham
    Last edited by Deveng; 2 Weeks Ago at 09:51 PM.

  3. #3

    Friend Deveng

    Quote Originally Posted by Deveng View Post
    Hi Bill

    Could now be an opportunity for Anthony to incorporate another improvement into the trigger.

    And that is to incorporate a 90 degree engagement with the firing pin and thus remove the upward force and movement on the rear of the bolt.


    I know this is not a simple thing as it would be a totally different layout with a vertical engagement leaver with the firing pin.

    But after all it is not simple we are after but the best accuracy.

    Regards
    Graham

    __________________


    Friend Deveng:


    That would be wonderful, but, I'm afraid it's probably close to impossible.


    And especially since we're dealing with the confines of a pistol, in this case.



    In discussing this trigger with AD, especially about reducing the upward pressure on the bottom of the cocking piece as the firing pin moves forward to produce ignition, he's already come up with an improvement in this area.


    Ralph Bond, in his conversions, uses the factory transfer bar and trigger sear return spring.


    But in the Bond conversion, this dual function spring is only used to return the third lever, which in turn returns the transfer bar.


    This is why the Bond conversion uses a separate trigger shoe return spring.



    AD is changing the rate of this third lever/transfer bar return spring.


    And in doing so will lighten the upward pressure of the transfer bar on the bottom of the cocking piece.


    Your friend, BC


    _________________________


    PS:



    I still can't believe this is actually happening.......that we're about to get this pistol for the masses.


    And we ain't got it yet.


    But man, if AD can pull this thing off..........man.




    Just imagine sitting down behind this thing and kicking out a card.......especially with some of this new killer ammo......man!




    Last edited by Bill Calfee; 2 Weeks Ago at 05:13 AM.

  4. #4

    Trigger idea

    Hi Bill

    I have been doodling with the trigger of Anthony's to try and make a 90 degree engagement to the cocking piece with a minimum of modification.


    Here is an idea with one extra leaver added to Anthony's trigger I call it 4 link.

    Anthony's ready to fire.JPG
    Anthony's fired.JPG
    4 Link ready to fire.JPG
    4 Link fired.JPG

    There is still downward force on the transfer link but no upward force pushing up on the cocking piece.

    Regards

    Graham

  5. #5

    Friend Deveng

    Quote Originally Posted by Deveng View Post
    Hi Bill

    I have been doodling with the trigger of Anthony's to try and make a 90 degree engagement to the cocking piece with a minimum of modification.


    Here is an idea with one extra leaver added to Anthony's trigger I call it 4 link.

    Anthony's ready to fire.JPG
    Anthony's fired.JPG
    4 Link ready to fire.JPG
    4 Link fired.JPG

    There is still downward force on the transfer link but no upward force pushing up on the cocking piece.

    Regards

    Graham

    ___________________________



    Friend Deveng:


    This is what CYA was created for.....serious folks with serious ideas about advancing rimfire accuracy.



    ______________________________



    The positive about your design:


    1.... Vertical interface.


    2.... And, your design would actually about double the fulcrum length between the transfer bar contact on the third lever and the trigger sear, ( top of L sear), which in tern lightens the pull weight required.......by a bunch by the way.


    So those two things would be of tremendous benefit.


    But.....................



    In reality, I don't believe it can be physically executed.


    I'm getting ready to leave for a bit......


    We'll discuss this more.......


    By the way, do you have a rear lock-up RFBR action with a Remington pattern trigger? Or have one available that you could view? Any brand of action will do.


    If you examine one of these actions closely, it will be obvious why it would be physically almost impossible to execute your most excellent idea.


    And it is most excellent.



    Your friend, Bill Calfee

    ______________________



    PS:



    Friend Deveng, your idea is clever........


    You need to examine a rear lockup action, and see if there might be a way to make this work.......


    I'll be pondering it too.......


    And I bet you a dollar bill that AD will be pondering it also....

    _________________________



  6. #6

    Possible solution

    Hi Bill

    I see what you are getting at.

    I am making a presumption here and that is the receivers and bolt are still at the design stage.

    Only Anthony could do this.

    Zoom view.JPG

    The cocking piece could have a finger that extends forward the distance between the arrow and the 90 degree engagement lug in the previous picture and have the rotating part rotate under it.

    In the fired position it should line up with the back of the lugs and just miss as they rotate.

    A cross section image from Anthony down the center line of the assembled V3 in a return to battery position and fired would help see if this is possible.

    Regards
    Graham
    Last edited by Deveng; 2 Weeks Ago at 10:05 AM. Reason: Better idea

  7. #7

    Friend Deveng

    Quote Originally Posted by Deveng View Post
    Hi Bill

    I see what you are getting at.

    I am making a presumption here and that is the receivers and bolt are still at the design stage.

    Only Anthony could do this.

    Zoom view.JPG

    The cocking piece could have a finger that extends forward the distance between the arrow and the 90 degree engagement lug in the previous picture and have the rotating part rotate under it.


    In the fired position it should line up with the back of the lugs and just miss as they rotate.

    A cross section image from Anthony down the center line of the assembled V3 in a return to battery position and fired would help see if this is possible.

    Regards
    Graham


    ________________________



    Friend Deveng:


    Yes that could be done.....



    Here's the problem with the pivot hole for the 4th lever:


    If you look at this picture you will see that AD has a flat on the top of the rear trigger pin bushing.


    The reason for this, is that the bottom of the cocking piece rides almost on top of the rear trigger pin...


    Therefore, there's not enough room to attach a 4th lever, using the rear trigger pin hole as the pivot pin hole for the lever.




    In other words, the top of the 4th lever must be lower than the flat on the rear trigger pin bushing.


    Your friend, BC



    _______________________






    Friend Deveng, there's not enough room to use the rear trigger pin hole for a 4th lever.








    By the way, Remington triggers do not have the transfer bar captured by the trigger housing......when you remove a Remington trigger the transfer bar simply falls out, along with the return spring....


    Folks have always kept the pieces together, when out of the gun, by using short pins through the trigger pin holes in the housing..


    Or like Ralph Bond used to do, use kitchen matches cut to length........yes, this is the way he kept his triggers together.


    By the way, this new V-3 XP trigger doesn't have to have the transfer bar captured in the trigger housing......as far as I'm concerned.


    It will be plenty enough, for me, just to have it...........
    Last edited by Bill Calfee; 2 Weeks Ago at 01:53 PM.

  8. #8

    Thanks

    Hi Bill

    Thanks for explaining that.

    I see by what you are saying that the pin would have to be lower in the trigger housing and in the trigger hanger as well and I suppose this would make it a unique matched pair that could not be interchangeable with any other trigger system on the market.

    Sorry Bill but I could not help myself do another doodle, when I have something in my brain it keeps on rattling around and I can't get rid of it.

    Lower rear pin.jpg

    Regards
    Graham

  9. #9

    Friend Deveng

    Quote Originally Posted by Deveng View Post
    Hi Bill

    Thanks for explaining that.

    I see by what you are saying that the pin would have to be lower in the trigger housing and in the trigger hanger as well and I suppose this would make it a unique matched pair that could not be interchangeable with any other trigger system on the market.

    Sorry Bill but I could not help myself do another doodle, when I have something in my brain it keeps on rattling around and I can't get rid of it.


    Lower rear pin.jpg

    Regards
    Graham

    _____________________________


    Friend Deveng:


    Don't stop.........this is the way rimfire accuracy is advanced....


    Something to ponder:


    What if the trigger hanger used blind pins for the rear trigger pin, instead of a pin that went completely through the housing?


    Then, a lower pivot pin could be incorporated into the housing for the 4th lever....



    Your friend, BC

  10. #10
    Bill,

    Here are a few more drawings of the V3 XP trigger. The first drawing shows the original lever layout and contact points, the second drawing shows the new layout. The third drawing shows an isometric view of the trigger housing with the lever pins installed and the sear adjustment screw. The housing will be machined from a solid billet of aluminum and then anodized. The lever pins will be pressed into the housing and the levers will rotate on the pins. The transfer bar will slide onto the front pillar of the housing. The rear pillar of the housing will keep the transfer bar from popping out of the housing when the trigger is removed. The housing cover will be located by two counterbores that mate up with the pillars and two Torx FHS will fasten the housing cover to the trigger housing. Installing one of these triggers into a hanger will be as simple as a Bix N Andy, Flavio or Jewel.

    Best Regards, Anthony
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by DiOrioMFG; 1 Week Ago at 12:45 AM.

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