Just finished my new book.....and learned the secret.

Just finished my new book.....and learned the secret.


CYA friends:


I just finished the new book Rembrandt gave me.....


I actually started reading it right after the mail lady brought it this afternoon....

______________________



And I learned the secret to making cut rifled barrels competitive in RFBR shooting..........maybe even more competitive than button rifled barrels, plus, conformation that Pope did lap his barrels.



CYA friends, I could never get cut rifled barrels to be competitive when using rimfire ammo, nor could anyone else for that matter, which is why we use button rifled barrels today in rimfire.



But today I learned the secret from this book Rembrandt gave me.........



Before I proceed, I guarantee that Dan Muller and Paul Tolvstad will understand exactly what I'm going to say, since years ago we had conversations about this cut rifled business......which is why Dan Muller started making button rifled barrels.



Anyway, here's the secret to making cut rifled barrels shoot rimfire ammo:


According to this author, now hang on to your hats, Pope chambered his barrels before he rifled them.



YES....................


CYA friends, maybe no one else on earth will understand why chambering before rifling would allow rimfire ammo to be competitive in a cut rifled barrel, but Dan and Paul will........


___________________________




CYA friends, years ago I made a standing offer to any cut rifled rimfire barrel maker, that for $25,000.00 compensation I'd give them the reasons cut rifled rimfire barrels are not competitive with buttoned rifled rimfire barrels......( and of course the offer was somewhat tongue n cheek, although not completely)


Chambering a cut rifled barrel before rifling it would take care of all the problems with cut rifled barrels trying to use rimfire ammo.


Actually, there's a very good possibility that cut rimfire barrels produced this way might actually be superior to button rimfire barrels.



__________________________




The two most fascinating takeaways from this book, are, conformation that Pope did lap his barrels, and, learning the secret to making cut rifled rimfire barrels fully competitive with, if not superior to, button rifled rimfire barrels.


Thank you again Rembrandt.....


I'm going to bed......time to get some sleep.


This 15 year old kid needs some rest.



Your friend, Bill Calfee

Bill Calfee said:

Just finished my new book.....and learned the secret.


CYA friends:


I just finished the new book Rembrandt gave me.....


I actually started reading it right after the mail lady brought it this afternoon....

______________________



And I learned the secret to making cut rifled barrels competitive in RFBR shooting..........maybe even more competitive than button rifled barrels, plus, conformation that Pope did lap his barrels.



CYA friends, I could never get cut rifled barrels to be competitive when using rimfire ammo, nor could anyone else for that matter, which is why we use button rifled barrels today in rimfire.



But today I learned the secret from this book Rembrandt gave me.........



Before I proceed, I guarantee that Dan Muller and Paul Tolvstad will understand exactly what I'm going to say, since years ago we had conversations about this cut rifled business......which is why Dan Muller started making button rifled barrels.



Anyway, here's the secret to making cut rifled barrels shoot rimfire ammo:


According to this author, now hang on to your hats, Pope chambered his barrels before he rifled them.



YES....................


CYA friends, maybe no one else on earth will understand why chambering before rifling would allow rimfire ammo to be competitive in a cut rifled barrel, but Dan and Paul will........


___________________________




CYA friends, years ago I made a standing offer to any cut rifled rimfire barrel maker, that for $25,000.00 compensation I'd give them the reasons cut rifled rimfire barrels are not competitive with buttoned rifled rimfire barrels......( and of course the offer was somewhat tongue n cheek, although not completely)


Chambering a cut rifled barrel before rifling it would take care of all the problems with cut rifled barrels trying to use rimfire ammo.


Actually, there's a very good possibility that cut rimfire barrels produced this way might actually be superior to button rimfire barrels.



__________________________




The two most fascinating takeaways from this book, are, conformation that Pope did lap his barrels, and, learning the secret to making cut rifled rimfire barrels fully competitive with, if not superior to, button rifled rimfire barrels.


Thank you again Rembrandt.....


I'm going to bed......time to get some sleep.


This 15 year old kid needs some rest.



Your friend, Bill Calfee

Click to expand...

Howdy Bill,
I am at physical therapy with heat and the TENS unit on my back......sorta the calm before the storm of physical therapy. Thought I'd see what you had to say this morning. I'm about to reveal my absolute ignorance.........

How does a rifle cutter get started at the end of a 22 long rifle chamber, repeatedly, for each groove cut, and not affect the leade of the chamber? How does the cutter get positioned perfectly for every single repeated cut on every single groove?

Pope was and is an icon.........but I was told years ago that he started working with 22 long rifle barrels later in his career..........and hated them. As I was holding a Pope built BSA Model 12 Martini, I was also told that Eric Johnson barrels outshot Pope's 22 long rifle barrels, but Pope's work brought more money because it was Pope. I thought it interesting.

Any possibility that Pope hated 22lr barrels because he chambered before rifling and it didn't work out like he thought it would?

Take care,

Greg

Friend 404tbang

Friend 404tbang


Friend 404tbang:



Hang in there with that back.....


___________________


Greg, I'm not a barrel maker.....


The only things I have going for me, with regards to how barrels are made, are what my ole mentor Mutt Martin instructed me about years ago, plus my conversations with Fred Depoy of Douglas Barrels, and of course my conversations with Dan Muller, Ed Shilen, Dan Lilja and Tim North of Broughton.



I greatly enjoyed this book that Rembrandt gave me.....


But.............


I read it with a certain amount of skepticism.........


It's like an automobile mechanic reading a book by another automobile mechanic, as an example.......it would be human nature to have a certain amount of skepticism, since the reader is in the same field as the writer.



I do know just enough about barrel making to appreciate some of the things the writer described as probably very accurate.


For instance:


Mutt Martin told me it took about 60 passes per groove, the way he rifled, to bring it to full depth.


This writer stated that Pope took about 50 passes per groove......


So I can pretty much believe that 50-60 passes per groove is probably correct.


And some other points the writer made that coincided favorably with what Mutt told me.


________________________________



But there were also a few differences........


And these differences were more, how could I say, philosophical in nature, than technical differences.



First of all, I have no reason to doubt anything the writer wrote.....



But two things struck me.


The first was the issue of Pope lapping his barrels, or not.


Mutt Martin told me a story, by the way which I have recorded on a cassette tape from the middle 70's, about a story that A.O. Niedner told him concerning a visit Niedner made to Pope's shop.


The crux of the story, is that Pope wanted folks to believe that his rifling was so exceptional, as cut, that he didn't need to lap his barrels.


But Niedner discovered accidentally, while at Pope's shop, that Pope most certainly did lap his barrels.


So did Pope lead most folks to believe he didn't need to lap his blanks?...........I don't know what to believe......





______________________



The second thing is this:


The writer stated, that drilling a blank end to end, and having the exit hole come out in the middle of the blank, was an ability Pope had that was uniquely superior to other barrel makers.


One day when I was at Mutt's shop, I asked him how he did this.......how he drilled a blank so the exit hole came out in the center of the blank, like the entrance hole...


This is exactly what he told me:


He said it would be more difficult to make the exit hole "not' come out in the center of the blank, than to make it do so, provided the blank was set up properly and a properly centered starting hole, for the deep hole drill bit, provided for in the entrance to the blank.


Mutt told me he spun his barrels at very high speed, and that centrifugal force held the stationary bit to the center of the blank.


Mutt said most generally, when the bit punched through the end of the blank, it just sat there completely motionless......


He said that every great once-in-a-while a bit would wonder off as it punched through the end of the blank, but not often.


So did Pope actually have a unique ability to accurately deep hole drill a blank, that other barrel makers didn't?


For this one I'm going to have to say, no..........



_____________________



About whether a rimfire blank could be chambered first, then rifled, and why Pope was maybe not into rimfire?


I don't know the answer to the first part....( I really don't know the answer to the second part, either)



But on the second part, here's what I think:


Pope was as famous for his loading tools, bullet molds, lube pumps, etc. as he was his barrels.


Something tells me he might not have had as much satisfaction making barrels for shooting factory loads, as he did when he make the loading tools, too.


This is only a guess.



Your friend, BC

CYA friends

CYA friends:


First of all, thank you again Rembrandt for the Pope barrel book you gave me...



CYA friends, I "read" a book the first time through....


The second time I pick it up, I "study" it.


I've been studying this Pope Barrel book that Rembrandt gave me...



The single greatest takeaway from this fine book is this:


Pope chambered his barrels before he rifled them.....and yes, he did produce 22 rimfire barrels.


CYA friends, we've got some studying to do....



Your friend, Bill Calfee

Pope Barrels

Hi Bill

CYA friends, maybe no one else on earth will understand why chambering before rifling would allow rimfire ammo to be competitive in a cut rifled barrel, but Dan and Paul will........


Can you please explain to me what the advantage was / is.

From memory I thought he even rifled it after doing the muzzle and chamber because he did not want any marks on the lands (they were narrow) and any burs so the rifling was the last thing (not counting the lapping)

Regards
Graham

Deveng said:

Hi Bill

CYA friends, maybe no one else on earth will understand why chambering before rifling would allow rimfire ammo to be competitive in a cut rifled barrel, but Dan and Paul will........


Can you please explain to me what the advantage was / is.

From memory I thought he even rifled it after doing the muzzle and chamber because he did not want any marks on the lands (they were narrow) and any burs so the rifling was the last thing (not counting the lapping)

Regards
Graham

Click to expand...

___________________


Friend Deveng:


The first thing to keep in mind here, is that Pope was a cut rifled barrel maker.........in his case scrape or broach cut, not hook cut.


Although the type of cutter he used doesn't matter.........he produced cut rifled barrels.




Cut rifled barrels for the 22 RF are not as competitive as button rifled rimfire barrels.


And there's reasons for this.



If one could rifle a cut rifled barrel, after it was chambered and crowned, the reasons why cut rifled barrels are not as competitive as button rifled barrel might be eliminated.


As a matter of fact, if the above could actually be done, cut rifled rimfire barrels would probably be superior to button rifled rimfire barrels.


_________________________



The book says Pope used a guide inserted into the chamber to allow the cutter to start properly......and at the crown?



I got to thinking about this, and there's no way a guide could be inserted into a rimfire chamber...


But..................


What if one produced an external guide........


Turn the OD of the barrel, at the chamber, to fit a pre-machined guide that slips over the chamber end of the barrel, to guide the cutter.


Same for the muzzle end.



___________________________



What Pope did by chambering before rifling, was to guarantee a perfect fluid transition from the chamber, through the leade, and into the bore, while keeping the leade absolutely pristine....


I came close to this for years by using what I call a "hob" to finish the leade.



By the way, when Pope chambered, he used a roughing reamer, a finishing reamer, a burnishing reamer and finally a polishing reamer.....


My hob was my polishing reamer....



Your friend, BC