B&A trigger users...

Bill Calfee

Gun Fool
B&A trigger users...


CYA friends:


I'm posting this on this forum because the important rimfire accuracy forums are full........


There's so much happening here at CYA, that we don't have enough different forums to keep one important topic from being posted on top of another.

______________________



Anyway:



For users of B&A triggers:



When, if, you have time, and want to, it'd be most interesting if you'd run a simple test with your B&A trigger.




With your rifle empty, and clamped in a vise so you can deal with it, do this:


Make sure the rifle is empty......


Then de-cock the breech bolt.......like this:



Hold the trigger back, then lower the breech bolt handle, to de-cock the breech bolt.


Do it slowly at first, then re-cock the breech bolt and repeat, lowering the breech bolt handle smartly.


You may have to do this several times...



Here's what you're looking for:


As you hold the trigger back and lower the bolt handle smartly, do you feel, or hear, an audible click?


Or maybe, do you every once in a while, as you hold the trigger and close the bolt smartly, feel the firing pin delay, just for a split second, before it moves forward?



The audible click and the delay will be at the same time.


Or in an extreme case, when you hold the trigger and close the bolt handle smartly, real smartly, does the firing pin delay for an instant, then fire forward?


__________________


Please keep something in mind:


When you de-cock an action with a Remington pattern trigger, by pulling the trigger as you lower the breech bolt handle, the firing pin should simply move forward, with no click or delay of any kind.

____________________


If you shoot the B&A trigger, I'd recommend you run this simple test....


When you pull and hold the trigger, then lower the bolt handle smartly, there should be no click, or any delay of the firing pin moving forward...



Your friend, Bill Calfee
 
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CYA friends who use B&A triggers

B&A trigger users...


CYA friends:


I'm posting this on this forum because the important rimfire accuracy forums are full........


There's so much happening here at CYA, that we don't have enough different forums to keep one important topic from being posted on top of another.

______________________



Anyway:



For users of B&A triggers:



When, if, you have time, and want to, it'd be most interesting if you'd run a simple test with your B&A trigger.




With your rifle empty, and clamped in a vise so you can deal with it, do this:


Make sure the rifle is empty......


Then de-cock the breech bolt.......like this:



Hold the trigger back, then lower the breech bolt handle, to de-cock the breech bolt.


Do it slowly at first, then re-cock the breech bolt and repeat, lowering the breech bolt handle smartly.


You may have to do this several times...



Here's what you're looking for:


As you hold the trigger back and lower the bolt handle smartly, do you feel, or hear, an audible click?


Or maybe, do you every once in a while, as you hold the trigger and close the bolt smartly, feel the firing pin delay, just for a split second, before it moves forward?



The audible click and the delay will be at the same time.


Or in an extreme case, when you hold the trigger and close the bolt handle smartly, real smartly, does the firing pin delay for an instant, then fire forward?


__________________


Please keep something in mind:


When you de-cock an action with a Remington pattern trigger, by pulling the trigger as you lower the breech bolt handle, the firing pin should simply move forward, with no click or delay of any kind.

____________________


If you shoot the B&A trigger, I'd recommend you run this simple test....


When you pull and hold the trigger, then lower the bolt handle smartly, there should be no click, or any delay of the firing pin moving forward...



Your friend, Bill Calfee


____________________________________________________________


CYA friends who use B&A triggers:


Myself and a friend have checked two B&A triggers now, in two different actions, and both reacted the same way.


We installed Jewel triggers in both actions and when de-cocking, slowly or smartly, the firing pins move forward smoothly every time, with no click.


I ran the test on the three lever trigger in my new MD-PAS pistol, and it de-cocks smoothly too, every time and no click.


_____________________



If you hold the trigger then close the breech bolt smartly with your B&A, and hear a click, or the firing pin delays slightly, or both, this is the way both of the B&A triggers reacted that we tested, in two different actions.


One time the delay of the firing pin moving forward was maybe a half second.....


And at times both triggers de-cocked smoothly, too.


So what's going on?


I don't know, maybe nothing that would affect accuracy....


Or maybe we have the only two B&A triggers on Earth that react like this......



Either way, if you use the B&A trigger it might be interesting for you to run this de-cocking test.


Your friend, BC
 
CYA B&A trigger users...

CYA B&A trigger users...


CYA B&A trigger users:


It might not mean anything, this "catch" that I've seen in two different B&A triggers when I de-cock them.


But then again it might mean eliminating an odd flyer from time to time.



If you use the B&A trigger, it might pay for you to run this de-ccoking test......



Your friend, Bill Calfee
 
CYA B&A trigger users...

CYA B&A trigger users...


CYA B&A trigger users:


I'm going to say this again.....


It might pay for you to run this simple test.......OK



Your friend, BC
 
Solution?

Bill,
If you have the click, what is the solution?
Thanks,
Hawkeye Wizard

Hello Hawkeye and Bill

I talk with a friend who may have enlighten me as to what's going on.
(I should mention.....this knowledge was passed along from our old friend Bill Pippin).

The B&A trigger can be ordered with a adjustable top sear, as well as a model with 3 different top sear engagement heights (the standard 3.6mm). So if a trigger is ordered without a specific model request, then 3.6mm is what he receives, if he is lucky then he has no problems, if not then the trigger will need replaced......or.....adjustments made to correct.

Our proposed fix has not been tested and proven, so I will hold off on that for now.

PS: Knowledge of how to measure for proper trigger is shared on Bullet Central, you can find it on the B&A order page.

Jeff Patterson
 
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Friends Hawkeye Wizard and JP65

Friends Hawkeye Wizard and JP65


I don't know what's going on, or even if it's a problem that will affect accuracy...........but it is concerning.


Two times when I pulled the trigger and closed the breech bolt smartly, I actually got the breech bolt all the way down before the firing pin fell.


Maybe a half second delay.


And then other times it closed fine with no click or dely.


___________________________



Thinking out loud:


If the transfer bar height was too short, the cocking piece would simply over ride it when the bolt was closed, which means the trigger simply wouldn't cock.


This is not the case with the trigger I fooled with.


I then thought the height of the transfer bar might be too high, binding up in some fashion?


So I installed two .010" washers between the trigger hanger and the action, which of course lowered the height of the transfer bar.


This didn't correct the issue.



I don't know what's causing this, or again, whether it's an issue that would affect accuracy.


___________________



Why is it then concerning to me?


By the way, I've never used a B&A trigger personally, but I have built rifles that used them, for customers.



OK, why it is concerning:



What I'm about to say may have nothing to do with this issue with the B&A trigger.




When I built the Bond style, three lever trigger for my new MD-PAS pistol, I had exactly the same symptoms with it, at first, as I'm seeing in the B&A.


The issue with my three lever trigger, was that the third lever was striking the short leg of the L shaped sear, as I held the trigger while lowering the bolt handle.


To correct this I thinned out the short leg so the third lever wouldn't strike it, and now I can pull the trigger and close the bolt as smartly as I can and it's smooth as silk, no click or delay.


I couldn't simply cut the short leg off, because the sear adjustment screw purchases against it.


By the way, my pistol trigger was working fine before I corrected the issue....


So if it was working fine, why worry about it?


It worried me because, if it would "click", delay, sometimes while I was manually de-cocking it, then would it do the same thing occasionally while I was trying to kick out a card?


What's going on with these B&A's may not be detrimental to accuracy......I just don't know, one way or the other.


Your friend, BC


________________________________


PS:


I'm going to say something that applies to all Remington pattern triggers, not just the B&A.


The B&A has the lightest upward pressure against the bottom of the cocking piece of all triggers, that I'm aware of, except my new pistol trigger, which may or may not remain the lightest, depending on the gummed up test I'm running.


Anyway, even though the B&A has the least upward pressure on the bottom of the cocking piece, try this test sometime:


Remove the firing pin spring from your breech bolt, then reassemble it, then insert it in the action and close the bolt, then pull the trigger and push the cocking piece with your thumb until the firing pin falls.

You'll be surprised at how much pressure is required.


This applies to all Remington pattern triggers, not just the B&A.


Here's why I'm telling you folks this:


It takes many, many times more force for the cocking piece to over ride the transfer bar, than it does to simply push it straight down with your finger.


Therefore, anything that might add to the force needed to over ride the transfer bar, especially if it only happens intermittently, has to have an adverse effect on consistent ignition.

bc
 
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We only have one bix trigger and its in Tad's rifle. We have been so busy sence I seen this post we havent had a chance to look at it. I had a fairly good idea what you was explaining and the problem it could cause. Interminttent problem.
If a person doesnt believe the drag of a Remington pattern trigger just change the whole setup over to 90 degree. It will overdrive the pin if all else is left the same.
Todd
 
May not have any bearing on accuracy....

May not have any bearing on accuracy....



CYA friends:


These issues with the B&A, that I've seen, may not have any adverse effect on accuracy.


The seemingly same issue with my new MD-PAS pistol trigger may not have had any either.


I just do not know.



But..................


Rightly or wrongly, it would have worried me to death if I hadn't eliminated it from my pistol trigger.



My RFBR schmidt days are long gone, and being a pistol shooter I'll most likely never own any more rifle triggers, B&A or otherwise.


But, I'm also a curious individual........


Even it I never own a B&A trigger, I'd like to know what's going on.



Again, there may not be any determent to accuracy with what's going on.


I mean, there's some big time shooting happening by shooters using B&A triggers.



But dog gone it, I've got to know.



BC
 
Here's what I'm going to try

Here's what I'm going to try


CYA folks who use B&A triggers:


Something is going on with the B&A triggers that I've taken the time to fool with, more than just installing them in new builds, that is different from other triggers.


I doubt I'll own any more rifle triggers.....I have plenty.


But, while we're waiting on getting a MD-PAS triple pistol, for the masses, I'm going to try to figure out this B&A issue.


Jeff Patterson is going to assist.


________________________________



Anyway, I went to the Bullet Central web site and watched some of their videos about B&A triggers.


The videos, although very informative in a general way, did not get into the subject at hand.


I did learn something interesting, that being, B&A uses three different transfer bar heights......which is probably a very good idea because of the various trigger height location in the different actions.


In their video they gave the consequence of the transfer bar height being too low, which allows the cocking piece to simply over ride it, and being too high which will bind up the bolt.


_________________________



The transfer bar in the B&A I tested was most certainly not too low.


Could it be too high causing the issue at hand?


I did install .010" washers between the trigger hanger and the action, to lower the transfer bar, which made no difference.


But, maybe .010" isn't enough.


Therefore, when Jeff Patterson has time to run out, we're going to keep adding .010" washers and see if that will solve the problem.



_________________________



CYA friends, my gut tells me adding the washers is not going to solve the issue.....( although maybe it will, hopefully)




I'm probably wrong here, but, the B&A has something unique about it that I've not seen in any other trigger.


The transfer bar has a "hard" connection between it and the pivot sear near the top of the trigger sear.


The Jewel trigger also has a connection, but it's not "hard", it floats.


The FF trigger's connection floats on roller bearings.


Triggers like the Bond style three lever I made for my new MD-PAS pistol have no connection at all.



_________________________



CYA friends, when I can pull and hold the trigger, then lower the breech bolt handle smartly, and can get the handle all the way down before the firing pin falls, something strange, different, unique, or something, is going on.


What is it?




Your friend, Bill Calfee


________________________


PS:

A note to myself before I forget to mention it:


To demonstrate how the height of the transfer bar affects things, when I added the .010" washers between the trigger hanger and the action, to lower the height of the transfer bar, I lost .007" of firing pin travel.
 
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Something's different

Something's different


CYA friends:


Here's a picture of the Bond style, three lever trigger that I made for my new MD-PAS pistol.


The tip of the third lever was hitting the short leg of the L shaped sear, causing the exact same symptoms that are in the B&A's I've fooled with recently.


DSC00150%20-%20Copy.jpg



Now..............................


Had the cocking piece already over rode the transfer bar before the tip of the third lever made contact with the short leg of the L shaped sear?


Maybe?


If it did over ride before the tip of the third lever made contact, does this mean that ignition consistency wouldn't have been affected?


I don't know.


All I know is, I couldn't take the chance, so I thinned out the short leg of the L shaped sear and now the tip of the third lever clears properly.


And the symptoms are gone........


When I de-cock my pistol now, no matter how smartly I close the breech bolt down, it's smooth as silk.


No clicking or firing pin delay.





Now.................................



Is there any connection to what was happening to my trigger, with what's happening with the B&A I've fooled with?


I don't know, yet.


All I know is this:


When one can't pull and hold the trigger, then close the bolt handle down smartly and get it all the way to the bottom, before the firing pin falls.


Something is hanging up, somehow.


Now, will this affect ignition consistency?


Maybe not.....


But, maybe ignition consistency wouldn't have been affected the way my pistol trigger was before I fixed it, either.


But I couldn't take that chance.


Your friend, BC
 
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