Ammo from hell again

Timo

Member
Bill & others!

If we think 22 LR ammo and compare it to lets say 6 PPC ammo and think also weakness of 22 LR ammo.

*We have 1 grain powder and 22 LR ammos case capacity is about 3,1 grain. There is powder about 32 % of case capacity. 6 PPC we have 100 % powder of case capacity.

*Priming mass is about 28-35 % 22 LR.s ammos force,powder force about 65-72 %.

*We are now trying to put together primers explosion and powder burning.

*We use now smokeless powder.Its burning depends VERY much of pressure where it is.

*22 LR ammo was designed to black powder,not to smokeless powder.

*As I have said I hate priming mass most of all in 22 LR ammo.

Lets talk what priming mass is making and mix there leade angle & leades surface to discussion.

We have about 12000 Psi pressure in 22 LR ammo. About 1/3 is coming from priming mass-->About 4000 Psi.(Those are offcourse approximations, I dont have measuring laboratory here)

Now I must go to kg/cm2/mm2,sorry to USA...

This 4000 Psi is about 281 kg/cm2.

22 LR bullets back is 0,22 cm2.

-->Primer mass stroke force to bullet is about 62 kg!!!!! (About 137 pounds)

You cant never get so big bullets outdraw force,that so hard stroke is not striking bullet forward first.
(My friends advice was that dont make crymping, glue bullets to case. I said, not yet,not yet,...)

1-2 degrees leade angle and very smooth leade surface try to make that bullet is going same distance from strike to strike and powder burning can happen near the same pressure & volume in the beginning?

If you are enough "gun fool" take bullets carefully off,take powder off and put new bullet back.Shoot with LONG barrel and measure how long bullet goes to barrel only with different bränds priming mass.
And measure also how much there is priming mass force variation inside same bränds.(Ofcourse waxing makes little differences to this test).
Change also crymping in case and look what happens with different crymping.

This primers stroke is heavy. 62 kg/cm2.

Bullets flies with its tail. Powder is now lying on the bottom.Intresting thinking is that how much this strike makes difference to bullets tail when strike is going direct up to bullet and on the bottom powder is saving little and strike is not straight....
Very difficult to test to me,because when changing powder to not burning material, I cant be sure is it the same as with powder???

I am pretty sure that human being can make ultimate or perfect 22 LR ammo but what are the costs of piece.

Also thought sometimes very funny thing, if we can kill group spread near zero,what then? Everybody shooting 750 / 75 X inside...

But thank to nature, average winds are going up all the time and we have wind reading left-:).

BR, Timo
 
Friend Timo

Bill & others!

If we think 22 LR ammo and compare it to lets say 6 PPC ammo and think also weakness of 22 LR ammo.

*We have 1 grain powder and 22 LR ammos case capacity is about 3,1 grain. There is powder about 32 % of case capacity. 6 PPC we have 100 % powder of case capacity.

*Priming mass is about 28-35 % 22 LR.s ammos force,powder force about 65-72 %.

*We are now trying to put together primers explosion and powder burning.

*We use now smokeless powder.Its burning depends VERY much of pressure where it is.

*22 LR ammo was designed to black powder,not to smokeless powder.

*As I have said I hate priming mass most of all in 22 LR ammo.


Lets talk what priming mass is making and mix there leade angle & leades surface to discussion.

We have about 12000 Psi pressure in 22 LR ammo. About 1/3 is coming from priming mass-->About 4000 Psi.(Those are offcourse approximations, I dont have measuring laboratory here)

Now I must go to kg/cm2/mm2,sorry to USA...

This 4000 Psi is about 281 kg/cm2.

22 LR bullets back is 0,22 cm2.

-->Primer mass stroke force to bullet is about 62 kg!!!!! (About 137 pounds)

You cant never get so big bullets outdraw force,that so hard stroke is not striking bullet forward first.
(My friends advice was that dont make crymping, glue bullets to case. I said, not yet,not yet,...)

1-2 degrees leade angle and very smooth leade surface try to make that bullet is going same distance from strike to strike and powder burning can happen near the same pressure & volume in the beginning?

If you are enough "gun fool" take bullets carefully off,take powder off and put new bullet back.Shoot with LONG barrel and measure how long bullet goes to barrel only with different bränds priming mass.
And measure also how much there is priming mass force variation inside same bränds.(Ofcourse waxing makes little differences to this test).
Change also crymping in case and look what happens with different crymping.

This primers stroke is heavy. 62 kg/cm2.

Bullets flies with its tail. Powder is now lying on the bottom.Intresting thinking is that how much this strike makes difference to bullets tail when strike is going direct up to bullet and on the bottom powder is saving little and strike is not straight....
Very difficult to test to me,because when changing powder to not burning material, I cant be sure is it the same as with powder???

I am pretty sure that human being can make ultimate or perfect 22 LR ammo but what are the costs of piece.

Also thought sometimes very funny thing, if we can kill group spread near zero,what then? Everybody shooting 750 / 75 X inside...

But thank to nature, average winds are going up all the time and we have wind reading left-:).

BR, Timo


__________________________


Friend Timo:


Here is some of the finest rimfire match ammo ever made.


So the USA did make killer rimfire match ammo at one time.



Western-Cartridge-Co-Super-Match-Mark-111-22-Long-Rifle_100954910_51511_8FD4C4790A427054_1.jpg




Now, here's a most interesting thing about this killer, USA produced ammo:


The priming.



When a bullet is pulled and the powder removed, then fired with primer only, the noise is only a whisper compared to the noise an Eley primer produces.


When I fire an Eley primer only, the noise is almost as loud as when I fire a live Eley round.



Not so with this old Western Super Match MK III........you can just barely hear the primer.


In other words, the powder is doing all the work to produce accuracy.




Your friend, BC
 
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Yes. This is usual to many good old ammo. Less priming mass and more powder force.

Same also Olimp-R and old Lapua Made here in Finland .

Searching the ultimate 22 LR ammos secret is my hobby and I have interviewed retired 22 LR ammo makers, production chiefs, quality controllers etc.

How I know that time has not golden memories of old Lapua?. One of my friend is old Lapua employer and he put up 1988 (31 years ago) Lapua 22 LR ammos testing center here in Finland.

He has preserve test targets shooted 1988-2019. Ofcourse not all but lot of them. mm or inch was exactly as long 1988 as it is now 2019.

Old groups are shooted mostly with Valmet Lions, Annies,Dianas, Shultz&Larsen,etc. prone RF.s to 50 m.Without tuners.

I have thought many times what kind of groups should come with best old Lapua ammo if here was Mr Calfees made real RFBR guns in tests those days.

Because big part of best lots leave here to Finnish position shooters etc. when they tested all the time and every single Lapua 22 LR ammo was made here in Finland.

I can say that old Lapua & Valmet employees have a very high professional pride.

High professional pride can translate: "If you make only 1 ammo/day take care that it is perfect". It is not ok sometimes to company owners and economy department.

Big companys has sometimes also big ego and many times big ego is biggest barrier to development.

We have good ammo lots also today,but not so high % of lots are killers than old days.

BR, Timo
 
Ok, but then why the primer took the powder "place"?

Is the primer more economical to produce?
Or, less accuracy means more ammo shot... if you know what I mean.
 
Hi Pedro!

In this link there is something about 22 LR ammo priming.If you click next page under there is one test system what some ammo makers use.

https://projects.nfstc.org/firearms/module05/fir_m05_t07.htm

Safety rules,economical thinking and environmentally friendly needs in subtances what must use has drive big makers to "prison".

Also there are more easy customers than RFBR shooters and it is easier to satisfy Biathlon shooters needs than RFBR shooters needs.....

It is easy to get "X-files" idea that more ammo is going to market if not every lots are killers and people must continue all the time killer lot hunting.

But it is VERY DIFFICULT (near impossible) to make killer ammo always and lot by lot mostly reasons I mentioned and combined to mass production.

As we have seen in history there has been different "kings" time by time.

And then we have maybe hundreds of different chambers ,1-5 degrees leade angle,barrels,barrels lenghts and riflings 15-17" in the world and as we know sometimes somebodys bad ammo is somebodys killer ammo.

I dont know is there ever coming smaller 22 LR ammo makers in the future or is some of big makers making production line only for ultimate ammo and forget mentioned "prison" things and mass product thinking.


BR, Timo

But Pedro! If ammo is going worse,maybe we must print bigger targets-:).
 
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