Do we need a professional barrel lapper in RFBR today?

Bill Calfee

Gun Fool
Do we need a professional barrel lapper in RFBR today?


CYA friends:


Had an interesting conversation.....


A shooter wanted to know if Jeff Patterson would consider lapping a barrel, if, this shooter could get an unlapped blank from the barrel maker.


Or, would I consider lapping an unlapped blank, for this shooter?


Actually, this is the second conversation I've had in the past few days about this same subject....



First...................


I'm not doing any type of RFBR schmidt work......haven't been in years.


As far as Jeff lapping a barrel for this shooter?


That's strictly up to Jeff...


Your friend, Bill Calfee


_________________________________________________________



PS:


CYA friends:


Do we need a professional barrel lapper in RFBR today?


One who does nothing but taper lap RFBR barrels?



In my opinion, desperately!



DSC00449 - Copy.jpg
 
One who has a proven track record and can do it and will do it without a year backup. Yep we need that. They could do well but I understand it's a hard job not a lot of people are willing to do. Maybe we get the barrel and send it to China. They'll do it. Question is can they be good at it? It's something we've never had and suspect we never will. There are people good or were good at it but not professionals. Right now there's probably only one maybe two that can do a good consistent job.
 
Friend Gingersnap

One who has a proven track record and can do it and will do it without a year backup. Yep we need that. They could do well but I understand it's a hard job not a lot of people are willing to do. Maybe we get the barrel and send it to China. They'll do it. Question is can they be good at it? It's something we've never had and suspect we never will. There are people good or were good at it but not professionals. Right now there's probably only one maybe two that can do a good consistent job.


_____________________________________________



Friend Gingersnap:


Your comment in bold orange:



Wally, if you could have any unlapped barrel blank you wanted, from any RFBR barrel maker....


And......................


You wanted it taper lapped so as to give it the absolute best chance of being a double bad killler............


Who would you want to taper lap it?



Your friend, BC
 
Bill!

Writing and smiling now.

Business idea to You! Go to nearest body building club and open there new "machine"--> Barrel lapping pump.

Companys business concept: Your brains and their muscles.They paid you XX USD/hour when they same time are growing their muscles.

Seriously: High quality lapping knowledge was here going to the"grave" and we tried to collect every knowledge of lapping what we can find with our "RF accuracy Team".

Took lapping course from barrel maker Mr Mäkinen etc. Nobody of us got there perfect lapping skills but we got lot of knowledge common mistakes etc.

Now everybody of us can learn more by lapping them selves and time will tell can we hold on this handiwork skill.

BR, Timo
 
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In 2008-2010 or so Shilen produced fairly consistently lapped barrels, but now it's no nearly as consistent. There are still some good ones but there are some bad ones. Probably depends on who was lapping that day or if they felt good, etc.

The same is true of other barrel makers, at least those that do lap, some are good and some are not. Again probably depends on who is doing it that day. So there is no professional lapper. I don't think there ever has been or will be but that doesn't mean everybody can't do it. Most good gunsmiths can perform some lapping but most don't want to lap an entire barrel for various reasons. I have two rifles with fully hand lapped barrels that I'm sure are hand lapped. Two others are supposed to be. They all shoot well but the two I knw are better and it's not a psychological thing because I had to actually sit down and think why I gravitate towards those two rifles. Different barrels and different brand actions but both fully hand lapped and I know that.

I've never done it. I figure I would just destroy the barrel and right now I don't have one to just destroy. At any rate I've heard it is a very tiring and difficult operation. So, I can see the two big issues. 1. They have to cost more. 2. People don't want to pay more at least in general.
 
You know who, which is why I said one or two. One claims to be retired. The other would be Jeff Patterson.

Wally,

That ain't no claim. It is true, you know it. Can't get that old (but younger than he thinks) man to do anything. He has all but declared himself dead.

Hell, there is still 15 maybe 20 killer rifles in that man if we could just get him to do them.

When a man has that kind of talent he owes it to the rest of us to share it. Yea, yea I know, he don't have to, and his life will be just as comfortable.

There isn't a lot of money in these guns, but it is such a waste. I hate to think we will never see another Duke of Earl, Black Death, Ginger Snap, and many, many others.

OK, I've probably said too much.

TKH
 
Thank you for the kind words.....all of you.

Thank you for the kind words.....all of you.


All of you guys, thank you...


Now........................


I've got to get my garbage set out, and check the mail box, and do the other chores I do before I sack out for the evening.


But......................



Tomorrow, or soon, since we're talking about lapping............


I'm going to talk about a barrel, that in my humble opinion, is the yardstick to measure all other barrels by, from the lapping standpoint.


I taper lapped this barrel from an unlapped blank furnished by the barrel maker.


TDX


The Muller 4-MI on TDX, is the "perfect" example of what barrel makers, and lappers, should strive for in a killer RFBR barrel.




DSC05229 - Copy.jpg


More tomorrow.....


Your friend, Bill Calfee
\

__________________________


PS:


TDX, when you have time, and if you don't mind, could you give us a rough idea of all the Big National event wins you've had with TDX?


I know you've had at least 7 or 8 PSL Championships, alone....


And St Louis ARA Outdoor Nationals...( and Indoor too, maybe )


And the various IR-50 Big National Events that you and TDX have won.....

OK........bc
 
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Thank you for the kind words.....all of you.


All of you guys, thank you...


Now........................


I've got to get my garbage set out, and check the mail box, and do the other chores I do before I sack out for the evening.


But......................



Tomorrow, or soon, since we're talking about lapping............


I'm going to talk about a barrel, that in my humble opinion, is the yardstick to measure all other barrels by, from the lapping standpoint.


I taper lapped this barrel from an unlapped blank furnished by the barrel maker.


TDX


The Muller 4-MI on TDX, is the "perfect" example of what barrel makers, and lappers, should strive for in a killer RFBR barrel.




View attachment 1881


More tomorrow.....


Your friend, Bill Calfee
\

__________________________


PS:


TDX, when you have time, and if you don't mind, could you give us a rough idea of all the Big National event wins you've had with TDX?


I know you've had at least 7 or 8 PSL Championships, alone....


And St Louis ARA Outdoor Nationals...( and Indoor too, maybe )


And the various IR-50 Big National Events that you and TDX have won.....

OK........bc

Bill,

I've never tried to count the National titles I've won with TDX. I know one out door, and one indoor ARA Nationals were with TDX, the others were with Tack Driver.

TDX has been my 10.5 and 13.5 lbs. rifles for IR 50/50 three gun. I know I've won at least three 6-Gun Nationals, but I'm not sure how many three gun (yards/meters) Nationals.

I've also won some unlimited Nationals both indoor and outdoor but I don't have an accurate count.

There was a time I planned my objectives each year. When those were achieved some of the fire came out of me.

There has been many rifles that has put in individual performances that far exceed anything I've done with TDX, but I don't think any rifle has ever won as many different national, regional, and state titles as TDX.

If you look at the IR 50/50 Hall of Fame (www.ir5050.com/hall-of-fame/)

and the ARA Hall of fame

www.americanrimfire.com/index.php/hof

www.americanrimfire.com/index.php/hof?class=unlimited_outdoor

TDX earned most of those points for me.

I guess this is going to come across as bragging and I don't mean this that way, but I am extremely proud of what you and TDX have allowed me to accomplish.

TKH
 
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"I guess this is going to come across as bragging and I don't mean this that way, but I am extremely proud of what you and TDX have allowed me to accomplish. "

Tony, it did not come across as bragging at all. You stated the facts.......humbly.

Take care,

Greg
 
Friend TDX

Bill,

I've never tried to count the National titles I've won with TDX. I know one out door, and one indoor ARA Nationals were with TDX, the others were with Tack Driver.

TDX has been my 10.5 and 13.5 lbs. rifles for IR 50/50 three gun. I know I've won at least three 6-Gun Nationals, but I'm not sure how many three gun (yards/meters) Nationals.

I've also won some unlimited Nationals both indoor and outdoor but I don't have an accurate count.

There was a time I planned my objectives each year. When those were achieved some of the fire came out of me.

There has been many rifles that has put in individual performances that far exceed anything I've done with TDX, but I don't think any rifle has ever won as many different national, regional, and state titles as TDX.


If you look at the IR 50/50 Hall of Fame (www.ir5050.com/hall-of-fame/)

and the ARA Hall of fame

www.americanrimfire.com/index.php/hof

www.americanrimfire.com/index.php/hof?class=unlimited_outdoor

TDX earned most of those points for me.

I guess this is going to come across as bragging and I don't mean this that way, but I am extremely proud of what you and TDX have allowed me to accomplish.


TKH


__________________________________________



Friend TDX:


I was going to comment about the barrel on TDX......


But, I'll do that later....


Now..................



Memories:



When I range tested TDX, and immediately saw what a killer it was, I called you from the range.......


I don't know whether you remember this, or not, but, I told you that if you fed this contraption, and pointed it, you'd win every Big National event you attended.


And Tony, you almost have......


I agree, I doubt there's ever been another RFBR rifle and shooter that's won more Big National events as you and TDX have.



As a RFBR schmidt:


The absolute best part of me being a RFBR schmidt has been the "after Big National event phone calls" from my customers, and discussing their victories with them.


And Tony, I've had a bunch of those phone calls from you over the years.......I mean a bunch.


Now.................



Per your last comment, in bold orange:


Please allow me to thank you for all the wonderful memories you've given me over the years.



Your friend, BC


______________________________


PS:


I'll discuss the barrel on TDX soon......


DSC05229 - Copy.jpg
 
"I guess this is going to come across as bragging and I don't mean this that way, but I am extremely proud of what you and TDX have allowed me to accomplish. "

Tony, it did not come across as bragging at all. You stated the facts.......humbly.

Take care,

Greg

Thanks Greg,

I know better than to brag about anything rimfire. It will come back to haunt you every time.

TKH
 
Wally,

That ain't no claim. It is true, you know it. Can't get that old (but younger than he thinks) man to do anything. He has all but declared himself dead.

Hell, there is still 15 maybe 20 killer rifles in that man if we could just get him to do them.

When a man has that kind of talent he owes it to the rest of us to share it. Yea, yea I know, he don't have to, and his life will be just as comfortable.

There isn't a lot of money in these guns, but it is such a waste. I hate to think we will never see another Duke of Earl, Black Death, Ginger Snap, and many, many others.

OK, I've probably said too much.

TKH

He'll do a few things Tony but I don't think lapping is one. I'll say if I needed help he's never just said "I'm retired, sorry." I think he has more than 15 or 20 left. He might go for a pistol. i don't know.
 
Friend gun fool Timo

Bill!

Have you ever thought that you make video of perfect RF barrel lapping process and sell it around?

Bestseller I think!!!

It dont need to be "Hollywood quality". Something like those under:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=WM8xaaUaTTY

www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXzmlDT-yxE&t=18s

BR, Timo


________________________________



Friend gun fool Timo:



How a rimfire barrel is taper lapped determines the ultimate success of a contraption, probably more than any other single aspect of the contraption.

______________________


Could someone produce a detailed video of the entire process, that would allow one to assemble the necessary equipment and start kicking out perfectly taper lapped RFBR barrels?


I'll answer this way:


Could someone produce a detailed video of performing brain surgery, that would allow one to assemble the necessary equipment and start performing world class brain surgery first time at the operating table?


I'm not attempting to equate the difficulty of taper lapping a rimfire barrel to the difficulty of performing world class brain surgery.....not at all....



But.................



The "hands on experience" required to do both at a world class level, probably takes equally as much time to acquire.



One other point that is extremely important......maybe the most important of all:



Brain surgery, and taper lapping a RFBR barrel, can only be performed, at their highest level, by dedicated, extremely hard working artists.


They both require the touch of the artist's hand and the perception of the artist's eye.



And in the case of taper lapping a RFBR bore, muscle, and the will to use it.


Your friend, BC

__________________________


PS:


For a video about how to properly taper lap a rimfire bore to be produced, would require someone with the knowledge....

I am not that person.

Yes, I've lapped rimfire bores for more than 30 years......but....I'm still learning....

If someone did produce such a video, I'd be the first to watch it....bc
 
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Yes.Nobody can get to video the "hand feelings".

Ofcourse we need professional barrel lapper in RFBR today.

But shooters must be ready to pay double price of their REALLY handlapped barrels.

But every day it is one day closer when Sunnen or other companys products can substitute hands also on taper lapping.

They have taken big steps to this direction on last years.

www.sunnen.com/gun_barrel_honing

One issue is that even worlds best hand lapper cant make twist uniformity better of button rifled barrel.

It is waste of time to hand lapp barrel where twist uniformity is not ok.

If RF barrels should be used in EVERY home like WC paper,problems has been over decades ago.

BR, Timo
 
Friend gun fool Timo

Yes.Nobody can get to video the "hand feelings".

Ofcourse we need professional barrel lapper in RFBR today.

But shooters must be ready to pay double price of their REALLY handlapped barrels.





They have taken big steps to this direction on last years.

www.sunnen.com/gun_barrel_honing

One issue is that even worlds best hand lapper cant make twist uniformity better of button rifled barrel.

It is waste of time to hand lapp barrel where twist uniformity is not ok.


If RF barrels should be used in EVERY home like WC paper,problems has been over decades ago.

BR, Timo


________________________________


Friend gun fool Timo:


The only thing I can not determine about a new blank, is how uniform the twist rate is.


Actually..............


Of all the barrels I've lapped over the years, plus the ones I fit that the makers lapped, I have no idea if the killers had some particular deviation in the twist rate that made them killers, or, the killers were the ones with a perfectly uniform rate of twist.


Logic would seem to dictate, though, that the chance of all my killers having some particular deviation in their twist rate, that I luckily crowned at the perfect spot, would be staggering odds.


As opposed to my killers being from blanks with pretty uniform rates of twist.



Therefore, I want blanks with as perfect a rate of twist as humanly possible to start my lapping on.

_________________________


Will science develop a taper lapping machine that will replace the true, taper lapping artist?


One should never say never........


But..................


I'm going to anyway.....


The answer is, no.


No mechanical taper lapping machine will ever replace the true, taper lapping artist.



Your friend, BC


________________________________



PS:


Friend Timo:


The true, taper lapping artist creates their masterpieces using intangibles........


"How do I know I need to stroke this area an extra stroke or two?"


"I don't know why, I just know................."


Machines have to function with tangibles...........

 
Honing machines are not yet ready to perfect taper lapping but they are on their way to make it some day.

Step by step.

Perfect honing after gun drilling and reaming is ready now.

Sensitive sensors are used (they feel opposite force and can make decisions) and this tecnology is going forward.

Not ready yet.

Ofcourse we all hope that they can find solutions to substitute also to perfect barrel taper lapping by hands.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5PlJJjlXdo

www.mmsonline.com/articles/ultra-sensitive-honing-is-right-on-target

On waiting time we need strong & sensitive hands.

Ps.We have had few World Champion drivers on Formula 1 coming here from Finland and this is enough big busines to develop cars very fast and make it fast.Annual change is 1,3 billion USD.

Barrel making is also big business, but >99,9 % customers are satisfied "average quality". BR shooting is too small segment to make developing strong & fast.

BR shooting is "Formula 1" case in shooting but near without money.....Our drivers get about 10 million USD/year.How much get World Champion in RFBR shooting?

BR, Timo
 
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