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Thread: Why we will not have a taper lapping machine

  1. #1

    Why we will not have a taper lapping machine

    Why we will not have a taper lapping machine


    CYA friends:



    Here's why I don't believe we'll have a mechanical taper lapping machine.



    Sensors.........and them reading how much lapping is required at various places throughout the bore.




    The first thing to keep in mind, is this:


    A tight place in a bore feels exactly like a rough place in the bore.



    So a sensor will notice the resistance to the lap, and tell the machine to lap more at this particular tight spot.



    Here's the difference:



    When the lap passes through a tight place in the bore, the lap is immediately sized to the tight spot.


    Additional lapping at this tight spot will, at some point, open it to the size of the surrounding bore.


    What I've just stated is a summation of the end result of removing the tight spot.....


    There's a bunch more the sensor must read as soon as it senses the tight spot has been leveled with the balance of the bore....

    The sensor will have to keep track of the resistance the lap has to the bore, before it encountered the tight spot.



    And once the tight spot is removed, the sensor will have to determine whether the lap should be replaced, or not, before continuing.

    And we haven't even started the taper lapping yet....




    A rough spot in the bore:


    A sensor will read a rough spot in the bore exactly like a tight spot.


    Even though the rough spot is the same diameter as the balance of the bore.


    If.......................


    The sensor causes the machine to lap the rough spot until it senses it's gone, that spot in the bore will, in reality, be enlarged.




    And keep something extremely important in mind, please:


    A lap only wears in the middle.......while both ends pretty much hold their shape.

    ____________________________


    I'm afraid taper lapping a rimfire bore to produce a killer, is going to be left in the hands of dedicated artists.


    Your friend, BC

    ___________________________


    PS:


    Here's me charging a lap for a 6 groove Lilja......


    Note: You can see where I cut the barrel off, after evaluation, then crowned it....


    Both ends of a blank must be burr free, or, made so by crowning them.


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  2. #2

    Who would cast the laps for the taper lapping machine?

    Who would cast the laps for the taper lapping machine?


    CYA gun fool friends:


    Who would cast the laps for the taper lapping machine?




    Well, why don't they just pull a length of lead wire through the bore, then attach it to the rod on the lapping machine.

    I mean, that would make a perfect pattern of the rifling on the lap.



    I guarantee that every lapper, for any barrel maker, already knows why this would not work.




    It would not work because you'd never get the lap charged with grit, properly.


    The initial lap for a new blank must be cast slightly loose......so you can impregnate it with coarse grit.



    The fit of the lap to the bore is controlled by the temp of the lead, and, how hot the barrel is heated.



    As the taper lapping progresses, tighter fitting laps are cast, since you're using finer grit.



    And then maybe the biggie:



    How do you teach the machine to properly bump up the laps as the tapering proceeds....


    Along with..............


    Shortening them, too..........


    Bumping and shortening of the lap go hand in hand.


    See...................


    When you bump up a lap, you only bump up the ends.......


    There's no way you'll ever bump up the middle of the lap.


    So the lap must be shortened each time before it's bumped up....


    Or.....................



    Once you bump it up, which is done at the breech end of the bore, of course, if you didn't shorten it first, you'd never get it pushed back to the muzzle end of the bore...


    Your friend, BC


    _________________________________



    This is a full fitting cast lap......


    This Lilja had already been lapped by Lilja.......although not taper lapped...


    So a full fitting lap must be used........


    We're not doing the initial sizing of the bore on an unlapped blank, here.....which requires a looser lap.


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  3. #3
    If , big if, there find enough money to develop this way machine my opinion is that human being can make it.

    There is so much ready VERY expensive technology to check out surface roughness & measurements on other areas than gunsmithing.

    Example www.witec.de/techniques/

    It is possible that accurate roughness measuring and dimension measuring can make program to lapping machine.

    And I think human being can find better lapping materials/ways to lapping machines than lead.

    Need big money and I am pretty sure that HIGH QUALITY barrel business is not enough big to find so big money needed.

    Thats why it is possible that we need strong & sensitive hands other 100 year or so. I dont know who was worlds first barrel lapper? Mr Pope was ofcourse one very famous one.

    How much we have had developing from Harry Popes time??? I mean many his tricks to lead bullet shooting are valid today. Maybe we go other 100 year "inventing old tricks" few times / few decades?

    Pope's method?:

    Eight wide grooves
    Radius 3x the bore radius
    Corners rounded out
    Grooves 0.004 deep
    Narrow lands

    Br, Timo

  4. #4

    Friend gun fool Timo

    Quote Originally Posted by Timo View Post
    If , big if, there find enough money to develop this way machine my opinion is that human being can make it.

    There is so much ready VERY expensive technology to check out surface roughness & measurements on other areas than gunsmithing.

    Example www.witec.de/techniques/

    It is possible that accurate roughness measuring and dimension measuring can make program to lapping machine.

    And I think human being can find better lapping materials/ways to lapping machines than lead.

    Need big money and I am pretty sure that HIGH QUALITY barrel business is not enough big to find so big money needed.

    Thats why it is possible that we need strong & sensitive hands other 100 year or so. I dont know who was worlds first barrel lapper? Mr Pope was ofcourse one very famous one.

    How much we have had developing from Harry Popes time??? I mean many his tricks to lead bullet shooting are valid today. Maybe we go other 100 year "inventing old tricks" few times / few decades?

    Pope's method?:

    Eight wide grooves
    Radius 3x the bore radius
    Corners rounded out
    Grooves 0.004 deep
    Narrow lands

    Br, Timo



    __________________________________________________ __


    Friend gun fool Timo:




    REMBRANDT gave me a copy of the book about Pope.......great read...



    If I remember correctly, Pope drilled his blank, then chambered it, then rifled and lapped it....



    If this is true, I can't imagine how Pope's guns shot as good as they did.



    There's no way I would take an unlapped rimfire blank, chamber it, then do the lapping.


    By the time I was finished lapping, the bore right in front of the chamber would be so tight that it would be impossible for the barrel to shoot.


    That's why when I do a post chamber lap, I get in quickly, do my thing, then move out fast....



    So.......................


    When I read this fine book, I had some skepticism about some of the things the author claimed.....


    I'm not saying Pope didn't do it exactly as written by the author......


    I know it would be impossible to chamber an unlapped RFBR barrel today, then do the full taper lapping afterward.


    It would not shoot in a bucket.


    Your friend, BC

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Calfee View Post



    __________________________________________________ __


    Friend gun fool Timo:




    REMBRANDT gave me a copy of the book about Pope.......great read...



    If I remember correctly, Pope drilled his blank, then chambered it, then rifled and lapped it....



    If this is true, I can't imagine how Pope's guns shot as good as they did.



    There's no way I would take an unlapped rimfire blank, chamber it, then do the lapping.


    By the time I was finished lapping, the bore right in front of the chamber would be so tight that it would be impossible for the barrel to shoot.


    That's why when I do a post chamber lap, I get in quickly, do my thing, then move out fast....



    So.......................


    When I read this fine book, I had some skepticism about some of the things the author claimed.....


    I'm not saying Pope didn't do it exactly as written by the author......


    I know it would be impossible to chamber an unlapped RFBR barrel today, then do the full taper lapping afterward.


    It would not shoot in a bucket.


    Your friend, BC

    Howdy Bill,

    That was extremely interesting to me, reading your thoughts on what was written about Pope barrels. Sometimes stuff becomes legend and it's difficult to separate the wheat from the chaff. Even from what's written. Your points were enlightening.

    Pope got into .22lr barrels late in his career. I've been told he didn't like them. I have also been told, while I was holding a Pope barreled BSA Martini, that Eric Johnson rimfire barrels shot better than Pope's, but because of the name, Pope's stuff was a lot more collectible.

    I'll never be able to afford a Pope rifle. But I've been fortunate enough to get some Eric Johnson rifles over the years. I even got one before my back surgeries that I've not been able to shoot yet. It may have the best barrel I have, I won't know til I get to the point I can shoot it. I also have a take off Johnson barrel that, when I sent a picture of the breech end, you told me came off of a Winchester 52.

    To my knowledge nobody has ever unlocked Johnson's secrets. I have documentation that shows he was an expert at barrel straightening. I don't know if that was a factor or not. All I know is that in his day, his barrels won a lot of National Championships at Camp Perry. I've read that guys would buy a brand new 52 and send it to Johnson to get the barrel replaced before they even fired a shot. His shop records apparently contain the names of the top shooters of their time, for a long time, sending their rifles in to him to build.

    When all this coronavirus stuff ends and it's safe, if you are interested, I'd love to bring what I've got for you to see if you can unlock Johnson's secrets. Who knows, there might be something forgotten or no longer done that he did, that can be of use today. I don't think there is a better man to examine this stuff than you.

    I'm not trying to put you on the spot, if you are interested that's perfectly fine, if you are not interested that's perfectly fine too. I need to bring a stash of Ale 8 over your way anyhow. And I'll take us out somewhere to eat. I gotta see if you can put away as much food as I can!

    Take care,

    Greg
    Last edited by 404tbang; 04-04-2020 at 03:19 PM.

  6. #6

    Friend 404tbang

    Quote Originally Posted by 404tbang View Post
    Howdy Bill,

    That was extremely interesting to me, reading your thoughts on what was written about Pope barrels. Sometimes stuff becomes legend and it's difficult to separate the wheat from the chaff. Even from what's written. Your points were enlightening.

    Pope got into .22lr barrels late in his career. I've been told he didn't like them.
    I have also been told, while I was holding a Pope barreled BSA Martini, that Eric Johnson rimfire barrels shot better than Pope's, but because of the name, Pope's stuff was a lot more collectible.

    I'll never be able to afford a Pope rifle. But I've been fortunate enough to get some Eric Johnson rifles over the years. I even got one before my back surgeries that I've not been able to shoot yet. It may have the best barrel I have, I won't know til I get to the point I can shoot it. I also have a take off Johnson barrel that, when I sent a picture of the breech end, you told me came off of a Winchester 52.

    To my knowledge nobody has ever unlocked Johnson's secrets. I have documentation that shows he was an expert at barrel straightening. I don't know if that was a factor or not. All I know is that in his day, his barrels won a lot of National Championships at Camp Perry. I've read that guys would buy a brand new 52 and send it to Johnson to get the barrel replaced before they even fired a shot. His shop records apparently contain the names of the top shooters of their time, for a long time, sending their rifles in to him to build.

    When all this coronavirus stuff ends and it's safe, if you are interested, I'd love to bring what I've got for you to see if you can unlock Johnson's secrets. Who knows, there might be something forgotten or no longer done that he did, that can be of use today. I don't think there is a better man to examine this stuff than you.

    I'm not trying to put you on the spot, if you are interested that's perfectly fine, if you are not interested that's perfectly fine too. I need to bring a stash of Ale 8 over your way anyhow. And I'll take us out somewhere to eat. I gotta see if you can put away as much food as I can!

    Take care,

    Greg

    _____________________________________



    Friend 404tbang:


    Pope probably didn't like rimfire barrels cause the 22 LR cartridge probably gave him as much trouble trying to make it shoot, as we're still having today......


    You can't take a cartridge that has the bullet the same diameter as the case, and not have difficulty making it shoot.


    Pope loaded from the muzzle with the ID of the mouth of the cartridge case the same diameter as the bullet....


    The chamber hid the OD of the cartridge case......unlike the 22 LR.



    I don't mean to disparage Pope, not at all......with what I'm going to say:


    Could Pope produce cut rifled RFBR barrels today, that would be competitive with the button rifled barrels we use in Big Time RFBR?


    Not hardly......



    And not to disparage Eric Johnson, either.......not at all.....


    But, Eric could not produce cut rifled RFBR barrels today that would be competitive with the button barrels we use.


    As a matter of fact.............



    The finest cut rifled rimfire barrel makers today, can't produce cut barrels that would be competitive with the buttons we use.


    _____________________________



    Greg, I'm afraid there's no, long lost secrets, that are waiting to be rediscovered today, about how to manufacture a cut rifled rimfire barrel...



    Your friend, BC


    ________________________________


    PS:



    Yes, one day down the road we'll look at your Johnson barrel.......


    And you can shoot my new MD-PAS pistol.........( which will blow your mind ruin you)


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  7. #7

    Popes rifling

    Hi Bill

    I thought Popes rifling technique was more of a hand scraping style rather than cutting.

    This would be a very artful process that nobody today would have the patients for.

    Regards
    Graham

  8. #8

    Friend Deveng

    Quote Originally Posted by Deveng View Post
    Hi Bill

    I thought Popes rifling technique was more of a hand scraping style rather than cutting.

    This would be a very artful process that nobody today would have the patients for.

    Regards
    Graham


    ____________________________


    Friend Deveng:


    Whether the rifling is produced by scraping, like the book says Pope did, or, hook cutting the rifling like most today do....


    The rifling is produced by removing material from the bore.....



    So after lapping, the metallurgical surface structure of the bore will be exactly the same.


    Good point.


    Your friend, BC

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Calfee View Post

    _____________________________________



    Friend 404tbang:


    Pope probably didn't like rimfire barrels cause the 22 LR cartridge probably gave him as much trouble trying to make it shoot, as we're still having today......


    You can't take a cartridge that has the bullet the same diameter as the case, and not have difficulty making it shoot.


    Pope loaded from the muzzle with the ID of the mouth of the cartridge case the same diameter as the bullet....


    The chamber hid the OD of the cartridge case......unlike the 22 LR.



    I don't mean to disparage Pope, not at all......with what I'm going to say:


    Could Pope produce cut rifled RFBR barrels today, that would be competitive with the button rifled barrels we use in Big Time RFBR?


    Not hardly......



    And not to disparage Eric Johnson, either.......not at all.....


    But, Eric could not produce cut rifled RFBR barrels today that would be competitive with the button barrels we use.


    As a matter of fact.............



    The finest cut rifled rimfire barrel makers today, can't produce cut barrels that would be competitive with the buttons we use.


    _____________________________



    Greg, I'm afraid there's no, long lost secrets, that are waiting to be rediscovered today, about how to manufacture a cut rifled rimfire barrel...



    Your friend, BC


    ________________________________


    PS:



    Yes, one day down the road we'll look at your Johnson barrel.......


    And you can shoot my new MD-PAS pistol.........( which will blow your mind ruin you)


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    Howdy Bill,

    I've been looking forward to shooting that pistol! I can't wait! Except for this virus that's caused so much heartache and trouble in the world.

    I've been a rifle guy since I was first taught to shoot a BB gun by my Dad and Papaw when I was four years old. But I believe what you say about being ruined by that pistol. Looking forward to it, thank you!

    Take care,

    Greg

  10. #10

    Friend 404tbang

    Quote Originally Posted by 404tbang View Post
    Howdy Bill,

    I've been looking forward to shooting that pistol! I can't wait! Except for this virus that's caused so much heartache and trouble in the world.

    I've been a rifle guy since I was first taught to shoot a BB gun by my Dad and Papaw when I was four years old. But I believe what you say about being ruined by that pistol. Looking forward to it, thank you!

    Take care,

    Greg


    __________________________


    Friend 404tbang:


    It's impossible to shoot this thing with a frown on one's face........simply can't be done.


    I look forward to seeing you shoot it, too.


    Oh, and when that day arrives, please do not bring any diet Ale8 with you, OK!


    Your friend, BC



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