The RFBR barrel of the future.

Future

BC
I’m sure that Muller and Tolvstad will be glad to hear your prediction. That’s good for business, for Shilen not so much.
You have helped the demand side of the equation, the issue is the supply side. If you go on the KSS web site yesterday there was 8 .9 diameter Shilen ratchet barrels for sale. Muller showed zero. It’s been this way for a long time. It doesn’t matter what the reason is. Whether it’s labor, business model etc. If the customer can’t get them or doesn’t know how to, they will be great barrels but no one will know.
I don’t disagree with you that they are good barrels. I’ve got 3, 4 MI Barrels on my shelf waiting for me. The laws of supply and demand aren't suspended for rimfire benchrest shooters.

Jerry Halcomb

Friend JH

Jerry Halcomb said:

BC
I’m sure that Muller and Tolvstad will be glad to hear your prediction. That’s good for business, for Shilen not so much.
You have helped the demand side of the equation, the issue is the supply side. If you go on the KSS web site yesterday there was 8 .9 diameter Shilen ratchet barrels for sale. Muller showed zero. It’s been this way for a long time. It doesn’t matter what the reason is. Whether it’s labor, business model etc. If the customer can’t get them or doesn’t know how to, they will be great barrels but no one will know.
I don’t disagree with you that they are good barrels. I’ve got 3, 4 MI Barrels on my shelf waiting for me. The laws of supply and demand aren't suspended for rimfire benchrest shooters.

Jerry Halcomb

Click to expand...

___________________________


Friend JH:


Why is Dan Muller even offering barrels through a middleman?


Dan Muller can sell every barrel he can possible make, five times over, without a middleman...


Anthony DiOrio doesn't sell actions through a middleman....


Because like Dan Muller, Anthony DiOrio can sell every action he can possibly make, five times over.


Your friend, BC


_________________________


PS:


Friend JH:


Supply and demand....?


Other RFBR action and barrel makers may have to use middlemen to help generate sales..


But Dan Muller and Anthony DiOrio do not.....


They can't make their wonderful RFBR products fast enough to need a middleman to help sell them...

Bill Calfee said:

___________________________


Friend JH:


Why is Dan Muller even offering barrels through a middleman?


Dan Muller can sell every barrel he can possible make, five times over, without a middleman...


Anthony DiOrio doesn't sell actions through a middleman....


Because like Dan Muller, Anthony DiOrio can sell every action he can possibly make, five times over.


Your friend, BC


_________________________


PS:


Friend JH:


Supply and demand....?


Other RFBR action and barrel makers may have to use middlemen to help generate sales..


But Dan Muller and Anthony DiOrio do not.....


They can't make their wonderful RFBR products fast enough to need a middleman to help sell them...

Click to expand...

I don't know why Muller would; he doesn't have to but when I called a couple of years ago there was no discussion of direct sales. I was told by the person answering the phone that I had to go through Southern Precision or bugholes.com (same thing). That was shortly after they were no longer on Killough's signt.

The reason I called was a group of shooters showed up at NEKY all with Mullers like they were his brother or something. I said you guys must have a connection. They looked at me like I was nuts. They had no clue where to call Muller but they knew Sourthern Precision. I don't think it's a good business model to constantly change how your prodects are distributed but it's not my product.

Muller barrels

BC
Your post of not having a middleman. I will only address Muller, I never said anything about DiOrio.

Here is from Muller website;

“MullerWorks sells barrels to qualified gunsmiths plus a limited number of distributers.” The two distributors are Southern Precision and Killough. I don’t know who they consider qualified gunsmiths. I guess you call around to gunsmiths and ask if Muller considers them qualified. I don’t have a ffl and would not want to be rated by anyone as A gunsmith LOL.

Halcomb

Muller

Dan Muller is a one man shop. He has several contracts for centerfire barrels which are way easier to make and lap.

If he is on the phone all day talking to customers and taking orders that means he isn't getting barrels made it's that simple.

Southern Precision is one of Dan's large customers and he sells alot of his centerfire barrels, once in a while he would send him some rimfires, and yes he has a waiting list also. For the most part right now he sells rimfires to the tactical crowd for the Vudoo and RimX actions so they are mostly Remington Varmint tapers with the 5R rifling.

Now I have been making almost all of the rimfire barrels lately but I also have a full time job at Killough Shooting Sports and I can only make them in my spare time, which I don't have a lot of.

I know everyone wants these barrels and we are working on that solution starting in 2021 so please just be patient. ( I know I know)

Now if someone thinks oh just hire more people, well in this business or any other at the moment that doesn't seem to be easy. Just ask the other barrel makers they will tell you the same.

I have been making barrels since 2001 when I started at Broughton, went to Rock Creek in 2006, and now helping Muller since 2015. Out of I don't know how many people interviewed and hired, only 2 have been great employees and actually care about accuracy and making barrels, the others were just punching a time clock.

With the Muller barrels Dan and I will be the only 2 to touch these barrels to try and make sure we are making the best barrels possible. Dan or I will be the only 2 to ever to taper lap the blanks.

I hope this clears some things up and again please be patient we are eventually trying to make these available to everyone.

Friends JH and Gingersnap

Friends JH and Gingersnap


Friends JH and Gingersnap:


The RFBR barrel of the futrue:


I'll bet a dollar bill, if someone had a new Shilen ratchet and a new Muller corrugated 8, in their original unopened containers, the majority of the "players" of RFBR would take the Corrugated 8.



And here's why I believe this:


I have never seen a Muller Corrugated 8 washed out in the breech end by the taper lapping process.


I can't say that for the Shilen Ratchet....or the Muller 4-MI, for that matter.


When you produce the most desired product, it's tough to meet the demand.


Your friend, BC

________________________



PS:


Pure accuracy potential.......


There's no difference in the pure accuracy potential of the Shilen Ratchet and Muller Corrugated 8..


If.............................


They are equally, properly taper lapped.

Paul

Paul Tolvstad said:

Dan Muller is a one man shop. He has several contracts for centerfire barrels which are way easier to make and lap.

If he is on the phone all day talking to customers and taking orders that means he isn't getting barrels made it's that simple.

Southern Precision is one of Dan's large customers and he sells alot of his centerfire barrels, once in a while he would send him some rimfires, and yes he has a waiting list also. For the most part right now he sells rimfires to the tactical crowd for the Vudoo and RimX actions so they are mostly Remington Varmint tapers with the 5R rifling.

Now I have been making almost all of the rimfire barrels lately but I also have a full time job at Killough Shooting Sports and I can only make them in my spare time, which I don't have a lot of.

I know everyone wants these barrels and we are working on that solution starting in 2021 so please just be patient. ( I know I know)

Now if someone thinks oh just hire more people, well in this business or any other at the moment that doesn't seem to be easy. Just ask the other barrel makers they will tell you the same.

I have been making barrels since 2001 when I started at Broughton went to Rock Creek in 2006 and now helping Muller since 2015. Out of I don't know how many people interviewed and hired only 2 have been great employees and actually care about accuracy and making barrels the others were just punching a time clock.

With the Muller barrels Dan and I will be the only 2 to touch these barrels so to try and make the best rimfires barrels possible. Dan or I will be the only 2 to ever to taper lap the blanks.

I hope this clears some things up and again please be patient we are eventually trying to make these available to everyone.

Click to expand...

Paul
I never meant any of this as a criticism of your business. It’s more of a frustration of supply and wanting to fit a barrel to a rifle when I have the Uninterrupted time to do it. I do my own work and am satisfied with that. Your business model is one of quality above all else and I applaud that. The last barrel I received was a 8 gr and I foolishly traded it for one of your Muller 4 MI. The 8 gr was supposedly slugged to be one of the finest ever in the gunsmiths shop who checked it. I didn’t find anything wrong with the 4 MI
It shoots great.
I guess I should admit that When I approach using a Muller barrel, if I were to screw up my chambering etc, there is no ready supply! That is not the case with other brands of barrels. This issue causes me some anxious moments!
Paul, you and Dan keep up the good work. You don’t have to explain to me.
Halcomb

Paul Tolvstad said:

Dan Muller is a one man shop. He has several contracts for centerfire barrels which are way easier to make and lap.

If he is on the phone all day talking to customers and taking orders that means he isn't getting barrels made it's that simple.

Southern Precision is one of Dan's large customers and he sells alot of his centerfire barrels, once in a while he would send him some rimfires, and yes he has a waiting list also. For the most part right now he sells rimfires to the tactical crowd for the Vudoo and RimX actions so they are mostly Remington Varmint tapers with the 5R rifling.

Now I have been making almost all of the rimfire barrels lately but I also have a full time job at Killough Shooting Sports and I can only make them in my spare time, which I don't have a lot of.

I know everyone wants these barrels and we are working on that solution starting in 2021 so please just be patient. ( I know I know)

Now if someone thinks oh just hire more people, well in this business or any other at the moment that doesn't seem to be easy. Just ask the other barrel makers they will tell you the same.

I have been making barrels since 2001 when I started at Broughton, went to Rock Creek in 2006, and now helping Muller since 2015. Out of I don't know how many people interviewed and hired, only 2 have been great employees and actually care about accuracy and making barrels, the others were just punching a time clock.

With the Muller barrels Dan and I will be the only 2 to touch these barrels to try and make sure we are making the best barrels possible. Dan or I will be the only 2 to ever to taper lap the blanks.

I hope this clears some things up and again please be patient we are eventually trying to make these available to everyone.

Click to expand...

All I know Paul is Killough used to have them occasionally then it was just a picture of the Mullerworks logo (I assume that's what it was), so I started where most people would, which is at the source. I called and someone answered and I asked about a barrel. I've heard your voice so I don't think it was you. It could have been Dan or an employee. I was told the ONLY place I could get the was Southern Precision bugholes.com or bugholz.com. I can't remember. Well that made sense to me because most manufacturers will have a distributor. It's not a matter of whether or not they can sell directly everything they make, it's simply a matter of logistics. Anyway, I called the guy. Right now I don't recall his name and he said he was supposed to get some but at the time did not have any and for me to leave my e-mail. Which I did. I left him the one that doesn't ring to my phone and the first run I missed out. I ended up getting one of those in a trade. I know there were several sourced that way including one to a guy in New Caledonia. I gave the guy my other e-mail and shortly I received an e-mail that he had some and I called him immediately and got one. I also ended up trading for one of those because the guy that got it no longer had a use for it. So, as of now I have two that have been fitted and one blank. Two are 4 MI's and one is an 8 groove. I just figured that's the way Dan had chosen to do business and it was no big deal. It did seem that there were regular shipments to Southern Precision.

Then, and I'm going to say this and you will deny that it had anything to do with it and maybe it didn't, Jerry made a post that the only place you could get them was Southern Precision. You took offense to that and said that it was not the only place and obviously it's not. But when I initially called I was told it was the ONLY place to get them. So, anyway, the rimfires at SP pretty much dried up. I don't know the reason but I suspect that post had something to do with it.

Personally, I have all the barrels I need and I'm not looking. But it rather amazed me when a group out of WVA showed up with Muller eight grooves (at the time the most sought after barrel available) and really had little knowledge of Muller, you or Mullerworks.

If you have a product you can sell it anyway you want and you can be exclusive if you want. There's nothing wrong with that and it happens all the time with various products. Frankly I've not seen an advantage and Shilen works just fine. My opinion is they are about on par with one another. I just may not be a good enough shooter to know better. It's like wine, you have to have a palate for it, but it all tastes the same to me.

Bill Calfee said:

Friends JH and Gingersnap


Friends JH and Gingersnap:


The RFBR barrel of the futrue:


I'll bet a dollar bill, if someone had a new Shilen ratchet and a new Muller corrugated 8, in their original unopened containers, the majority of the "players" of RFBR would take the Corrugated 8.


.

Click to expand...

Bill,

I'll bet you more than than that they would take the Corrugated 8 but the question for me is why? Are they really better or is it the hype. Some have done well and some not so well. Same with any other high end barrel brand.

Hype is a powerful tool, which is why ad execs are paid very well. I'll give you an example. Corona beer, and this example does not matter if you drink it or not, is a premium priced beer with a good name and people love to order a Corona over and old Budweiser. Yet almost every blind taste test that involves Corona beer finds that it come in last or close to last in taste. So, why do so many people want it. The theory is they have the best ad campaign and they do have a good one. Of course at the same time you have to apply critical thinking and wonder just who is running the taste tests. Maybe it's J.D. Power and associates. J.D. Power and associates sounds good until you get that critical thought going.

Bottom line is I think Muller barrels are generally great barrels. I also think others are.

Friend Gingersanp

wsmallwood said:

Bill,

I'll bet you more than than that they would take the Corrugated 8 but the question for me is why? Are they really better or is it the hype. Some have done well and some not so well. Same with any other high end barrel brand.

Hype is a powerful tool, which is why ad execs are paid very well. I'll give you an example. Corona beer, and this example does not matter if you drink it or not, is a premium priced beer with a good name and people love to order a Corona over and old Budweiser. Yet almost every blind taste test that involves Corona beer finds that it come in last or close to last in taste. So, why do so many people want it. The theory is they have the best ad campaign and they do have a good one. Of course at the same time you have to apply critical thinking and wonder just who is running the taste tests. Maybe it's J.D. Power and associates. J.D. Power and associates sounds good until you get that critical thought going.

Bottom line is I think Muller barrels are generally great barrels. I also think others are.

Click to expand...

_____________________________________________



Friend Gingersnap:


(Your comment I highlighted in bold orange)


Here's why:


I've never seen a Corrugated 8 washed out in the breech by the taper lapping.


I've seen plenty of Shilen Ratchets and Muller 4-MI's washed out by the taper lapping.


Therefore...............


One simply has a better chance of obtaining a "killer" with the Corrugated 8.


Your friend, BC


_________________________________


PS:


Friend Gingersnap, when properly taper lapped there's no accuracy difference between the Ratchet, Corrugated 8 and 4-MI.

Barrels

Here is something else to consider for any barrel. How many perfectly lapped, not washed out barrels don't shoot because of bad chambers, bad crowns, bad tune, bad ignition, no good ammo etc etc..

I know not all barrels are great but there are way to many variables with rimfire.

Paul Tolvstad said:

Here is something else to consider for any barrel. How many perfectly lapped, not washed out barrels don't shoot because of bad chambers, bad crowns, bad tune, bad ignition, no good ammo etc etc...

Way to many variables with rimfire to say well there are some that don't shoot great.

Click to expand...

Well one way I check any new barrel I have is
1. I have a Calfee built 4 MI barreled Turbo rifle as a “standard” 5 targets in as controlled conditions as I can make them.
2. I use Jeff Blocks program to analyze the targets
3. I use ammo that has a .090 MR or better in at least two different rifles.
4. I test the new barrel in either the Turbo above or another action that is proven.

After that I usually can tell whether the barrel job was any good.

Halcomb

Barrels

Jerry,

You'd be surprised how many bad chambers and crowns I've seen over the years.

I wish everyone went through the steps you do

Paul Tolvstad said:

Jerry,

You'd be surprised how many bad chambers and crowns I've seen over the years.

I wish everyone went through the steps you do

Click to expand...

You're right Paul, there are a lot of variables. A lot of people will assume ammo, barrel, action, etc when all they really need to do is look in the mirror to find the problem. It's been some years ago but I recall somebody posted that they "finally" had to wonder about themselves. I guess people have different self assessments but if I'm having problems I look at me first, ammo second, then rifle. I usually don't have to look past me. I have a hard time calling BR shooting a skill but obviously everyone is not equal in ability. I tend to think it's more how people visualize things that anything and their level of patience.

Bill Calfee said:

_____________________________________________



Friend Gingersnap:


(Your comment I highlighted in bold orange)


Here's why:


I've never seen a Corrugated 8 washed out in the breech by the taper lapping.


I've seen plenty of Shilen Ratchets and Muller 4-MI's washed out by the taper lapping.


Therefore...............


One simply has a better chance of obtaining a "killer" with the Corrugated 8.


Your friend, BC


_________________________________


PS:


Friend Gingersnap, when properly taper lapped there's no accuracy difference between the Ratchet, Corrugated 8 and 4-MI.

Click to expand...

Bill,

You've seen many more than I have so I would say that's a good reason.

Usually me

wsmallwood said:

You're right Paul, there are a lot of variables. A lot of people will assume ammo, barrel, action, etc when all they really need to do is look in the mirror to find the problem. It's been some years ago but I recall somebody posted that they "finally" had to wonder about themselves. I guess people have different self assessments but if I'm having problems I look at me first, ammo second, then rifle. I usually don't have to look past me. I have a hard time calling BR shooting a skill but obviously everyone is not equal in ability. I tend to think it's more how people visualize things that anything and their level of patience.

Click to expand...

Wally i know what you are saying, look where I finished at Livonia on Saturday. I have nobody to blame but me for my poor performance. I even shot a rifle that was in the top 10 that day for one target and I still sucked lol.

Paul,

There's always next time as long as we can get there. That's what keeps these games going.

By the way, I think the area tournaments is a great idea. I would love to participate but just the way things are right now I try not to get in crowds.