My case against shooting BR-50 today in RFBR

Bill Calfee

Gun Fool
My case against shooting BR-50 today in RFBR


CYA accuracy fool friends:


My case against shooting BR-50 today in RFBR..

Sub title:

How much do you value your killer RFBR barrel?

___________________________


I've debated long and hard on whether to post this, or not.



BR-50:



BR-50 is the original RFBR game......and the best ever devised.....


Like it was original shot......


Not like the late target with all the sighting bulls, which actually magnifies why BR-50 should not be shot in RFBR today...


Now, forget all that..................................



Here's why I believe BR-50 should not be shot in RFBR today......either the original version, and especially not the recent version with all those sighting bulls:



Eleyprime

_____________________________



CYA accuracy fool friends:


Before I explain in detail.......I'm going to ponder further as to whether I should, or not....


Please keep something in mind while I'm pondering:


During the original BR-50 days there was no Eleyprime...



___________________________


I'll either explain in detail later, or, I may forget the whole thing....depending on how my pondering goes...


Your pistol fool friend, Bill Calfee



_________________________


PS:


How much do you value your killer RFBR barrel?
 
My case against shooting BR-50 today in RFBR


CYA accuracy fool friends:


My case against shooting BR-50 today in RFBR..

Sub title:

How much do you value your killer RFBR barrel?

___________________________


I've debated long and hard on whether to post this, or not.



BR-50:



BR-50 is the original RFBR game......and the best ever devised.....


Like it was original shot......


Not like the late target with all the sighting bulls, which actually magnifies why BR-50 should not be shot in RFBR today...


Now, forget all that..................................



Here's why I believe BR-50 should not be shot in RFBR today......either the original version, and especially not the recent version with all those sighting bulls:



Eleyprime

_____________________________



CYA accuracy fool friends:


Before I explain in detail.......I'm going to ponder further as to whether I should, or not....


Please keep something in mind while I'm pondering:


During the original BR-50 days there was no Eleyprime...



___________________________


I'll either explain in detail later, or, I may forget the whole thing....depending on how my pondering goes...


Your pistol fool friend, Bill Calfee



_________________________


PS:


How much do you value your killer RFBR barrel?

Bill,

I think I know where you are going with this. If I'm right, you are wrong!

Yes, 50 shots per target plus sighters will certainly wear out barrels faster than what we are currently doing.

I'm all for that. There is no reason more barrels can't be made, and if there is a demand, there will be more made to fill the shortage.

Supply and demand makes the world go around. We need a larger demand to get the attention of manufacturers and keep them in business.

Now manufacturers are running small runs and shutting down until they feel the demand is there for another run.

Wouldn't it be great if they were running all week every week?

Very few RFBR rifles are being built today. It's hard to attract good smiths if there is little demand.

More business will not hurt a thing. Shoot them barrels up, and buy more that is what I say.

TKH
 
Friend TDX

Bill,

I think I know where you are going with this. If I'm right, you are wrong!

Yes, 50 shots per target plus sighters will certainly wear out barrels faster than what we are currently doing.


I'm all for that. There is no reason more barrels can't be made, and if there is a demand, there will be more made to fill the shortage.

Supply and demand makes the world go around. We need a larger demand to get the attention of manufacturers and keep them in business.

Now manufacturers are running small runs and shutting down until they feel the demand is there for another run.

Wouldn't it be great if they were running all week every week?

Very few RFBR rifles are being built today. It's hard to attract good smiths if there is little demand.

More business will not hurt a thing. Shoot them barrels up, and buy more that is what I say.

TKH


_______________________________


Friend TDX:


During the BR-50 days we did not have Eleyprime.....


I'm sorry, but there's no way I'd take the chance of ruining a killer barrel, like you have for instance, by shooting BR-50 today since we have to use Eleyprime....





Your friend, BC,


__________________


PS:



TDX, per your comment I highlighted in bold orange.....


50 rounds today are not like 50 rounds before the era of Eleyprime....



Eleyprime has made this a completely different world, as far as barrel wear, than back in the pre-Eleyprime days of BR-50..

This is why there's no way I'd shoot BR-50 today with a killer barrel...if I wanted to keep it killer..
 

_______________________________


Friend TDX:


During the BR-50 days we did not have Eleyprime.....


I'm sorry, but there's no way I'd take the chance of ruining a killer barrel, like you have for instance, by shooting BR-50 today since we have to use Eleyprime....





Your friend, BC,


__________________


PS:



TDX, per your comment I highlighted in bold orange.....


50 rounds today are not like 50 rounds before the era of Eleyprime....



Eleyprime has made this a completely different world, as far as barrel wear, than back in the pre-Eleyprime days of BR-50..

This is why there's no way I'd shoot BR-50 today with a killer barrel...if I wanted to keep it killer..

Bill,

I certainly understand your points about wearing out a good/great barrel.

No one wants to waste one. But barrels are replaceable and they are all going away sooner or later.

Just look at all that was accomplished with the TDX barrel.

If we increase demand barrels will become better and more available than they are today. Someone will step up and supply that demand.

Barrels can't be considered a one and done. Time moves on and so must RFBR.

Just think what a better world it would be if there was at least one more Calfee SPEC rifle in it!!!!!

TKH
 
Eley Prime

BC
is the issue the number of shots? Is it the number of shots fired before cleaning?
In other words does the 50 record shots b4 cleaning limit barrel life or is it just the accumulation of rounds fired?

Jerry Halcomb
 
According to Eley the Eleyprime system (EPS) was developed in 1979 and even received an award from the Queen in 1988. So BR-50 was alive during most of the nineties. Did they not use it then?
 
According to Eley the Eleyprime system (EPS) was developed in 1979 and even received an award from the Queen in 1988. So BR-50 was alive during most of the nineties. Did they not use it then?

Wally,

I'm not sure if Eleyprime was used in all Eley ammo back then or not. I mostly shot Lapua gold box, and Eley Benchrest Gold.

I do know that Lapua did not start using the Eleyprime system until the plant in Finland blew up.

The Eleyprime system creates glass particles and eats up a barrel far more than the previous priming systems used by Eley and Lapua.

At least that is what I've heard.

I can testify to the gravel road that can be seen at 6 oclock on any barrel that has used Eley or Lapua ammo using Eleyprimed cases.

Don't recall seeing it before Eleyprime.

TKH
 
Prime

Tony, Bill Calfee, Wallace
is the primer system of the present Lapua and Eley completely different bv than the old Winchester Mark IV ammo? It produced a pit at 6 o’clock in barrels that were heavily used. The Winchester ammo supposedly had glass in its make up.

Jerry Halcomb
 
Wally,

I'm not sure if Eleyprime was used in all Eley ammo back then or not. I mostly shot Lapua gold box, and Eley Benchrest Gold.

I do know that Lapua did not start using the Eleyprime system until the plant in Finland blew up.

The Eleyprime system creates glass particles and eats up a barrel far more than the previous priming systems used by Eley and Lapua.

At least that is what I've heard.

I can testify to the gravel road that can be seen at 6 oclock on any barrel that has used Eley or Lapua ammo using Eleyprimed cases.

Don't recall seeing it before Eleyprime.

TKH

I've seen that as well Tony but I can't really say how hard it is to remove. Seems a couple of patches takes care of it. I've seen people clean the crap out of rifles between cards and people that seem to never clean. I can't say that one does better than the other. It seems to me that if you clean really well, you're going to have to shoot the rifle back in and that usually takes about five rounds at most. So, go back to BR-V but just use 15 minutes. Twenty is too many anyway.

I could be wrong but from what I'm hearing and seeing ARA is on it's last legs not because it's a bad format but there's too many special interests and the people who kept it going don't appear to be really interested.

Myself I would go for BR-50. I can shoot it easily in 30 minutes so that's 90 minutes vs 120 minutes to shoot the same in ARA. If I worry about the barrel I don't know that there would be a rule that would prevent standing up after shooting 25 bulls and cleaning if that's what you want. It's your 30 minutes.

Another thing is I usually shoot about a box of ammo per ARA target. I could be wrong on this as well but I have shot the new BR-50 target and I really don't shoot that much more. Some obviously because you have to shoot a box just for the score, but I don't shoot two boxes. The sighters are just there and don't affect me one way or the other. You need basically the same size target as the ARA target so it can be scanned and a scoring program made for it. That would cut the bottom row of sighters out.

I'm not ready to quit. I don't excel but it's something to do. I'll shoot something either way.
 
Last edited:
I've seen that as well Tony but I can't really say how hard it is to remove. Seems a couple of patches takes care of it. I've seen people clean the crap out of rifles between cards and people that seem to never clean. I can't say that one does better than the other. It seems to me that if you clean really well, you're going to have to shoot the rifle back in and that usually takes about five rounds at most. So, go back to BR-V but just use 15 minutes. Twenty is too many anyway.

I could be wrong but from what I'm hearing and seeing ARA is on it's last legs not because it's a bad format but there's too many special interests and the people who kept it going don't appear to be really interested.

Myself I would go for BR-50. I can shoot it easily in 30 minutes so that's 90 minutes vs 120 minutes to shoot the same in ARA. If I worry about the barrel I don't know that there would be a rule that would prevent standing up after shooting 25 bulls and cleaning if that's what you want. It's your 30 minutes.

Another thing is I usually shoot about a box of ammo per ARA target. I could be wrong on this as well but I have shot the new BR-50 target and I really don't shoot that much more. Some obviously because you have to shoot a box just for the score, but I don't shoot two boxes. The sighters are just there and don't affect me one way or the other. You need basically the same size target as the ARA target so it can be scanned and a scoring program made for it. That would cut the bottom row of sighters out.

I'm not ready to quit. I don't excel but it's something to do. I'll shoot something either way.

Wally,
We aren’t talking about the same gravel road. What I’m talking about will not brush out. It is like a frosting or pitting in the metal. It starts at the bottom of the barrel and travels down.
Many say it is caused by the glass particles falling to the bottom of the barrel and Bullets traveling over them creating pitting.

I shoot about any game I find challenging. But I just can’t travel days to get to a match.
TKH
 
CYA gun fool friends........

CYA accuracy fool friends........


CYA accuracy fool friends:


I hesitated in bringing this subject up.......


But since I did, here's the issue.....


(By the way this is just my opinion........everyone is free to do with their barrels whatever they wish...)



_________________________________________



Today in RFBR we have two things to deal with that we didn't have during the BR-50 days:


Eleyprime and trick barrels, with some of the very best trick barrels being very MI.........



When we shoot enough rounds quickly, so as to start changing the viscosity of the wax by warming the barrel, a bore will start to glaze........


And when the viscosity of the wax thins, the components that make up Eleyprime are devastating on a bore by inducing it to glaze........


And when a bore glazes, the only way to correct it, is to cast a lap and do what amounts to a post chamber lap.


A glazed bore can not be corrected by any method except lapping...



________________



When I shoot or test, ever since Eleyprime, I constantly place my finger on the barrel right in front of the action..


If I feel the barrel starting to warm, even slightly, I stop shooting..............



When the viscosity of the wax thins out, if you continue to shoot, you will start the glazing process of the bore...




I love BR-50, which is still the greatest RFBR game of all time....


But...................


BR-50 commits too many rounds, in too short of a time, for the world of Eleyprime and trick barrels that we live in today.




Once again this is just my opinion.....your barrels are yours to do with as you wish.



Your pistol fool friend, BC
 
Wally,
We aren’t talking about the same gravel road. What I’m talking about will not brush out. It is like a frosting or pitting in the metal. It starts at the bottom of the barrel and travels down.
Many say it is caused by the glass particles falling to the bottom of the barrel and Bullets traveling over them creating pitting.

I shoot about any game I find challenging. But I just can’t travel days to get to a match.
TKH

Tony,

I'm on board with that. I'm not going to travel days to get to a match or stay a week at a match or matches. I went to Georgia this past weekend and that's probably my limit and it wouldn't be often. Actually, it's relatively close.

No, I guess we weren't talking about the same gravel road but how many rounds does it take to get there? Like you said, barrels wear out, that's what they do. I've never shot the number of targets in a year that you used to and probably never will. But I think I had rather enjoy that good barrel, if I have one, than just tell people I have a great barrel on an action in the safe.
 
CYA accuracy fool friends........


CYA accuracy fool friends:


I hesitated in bringing this subject up.......


But since I did, here's the issue.....


(By the way this is just my opinion........everyone is free to do with their barrels whatever they wish...)



_________________________________________



Today in RFBR we have two things to deal with that we didn't have during the BR-50 days:


Eleyprime and trick barrels, with some of the very best trick barrels being very MI.........



When we shoot enough rounds quickly, so as to start changing the viscosity of the wax by warming the barrel, a bore will start to glaze........


And when the viscosity of the wax thins, the components that make up Eleyprime are devastating on a bore by inducing it to glaze........


And when a bore glazes, the only way to correct it, is to cast a lap and do what amounts to a post chamber lap.


A glazed bore can not be corrected by any method except lapping...



________________



When I shoot or test, ever since Eleyprime, I constantly place my finger on the barrel right in front of the action..


If I feel the barrel starting to warm, even slightly, I stop shooting..............



When the viscosity of the wax thins out, if you continue to shoot, you will start the glazing process of the bore...




I love BR-50, which is still the greatest RFBR game of all time....


But...................


BR-50 commits too many rounds, in too short of a time, for the world of Eleyprime and trick barrels that we live in today.




Once again this is just my opinion.....your barrels are yours to do with as you wish.



Your pistol fool friend, BC

Bill,

Maybe people don't realize it but I think we committed to shorter barrel life when we committed to trick barrels. Still barrels seem to go for 30-50,000 rounds and I know that every round induces wear, but that's a lot of rounds. As far as casting a lap and doing what amounts to a post chamber lap, well it's like someone said once, "there's not a Bill Calfee on every corner". I guess that pertains to installing a new barrel as well.
 
Friend Gingersnap

Bill,

Maybe people don't realize it but I think we committed to shorter barrel life when we committed to trick barrels. Still barrels seem to go for 30-50,000 rounds and I know that every round induces wear, but that's a lot of rounds. As far as casting a lap and doing what amounts to a post chamber lap, well it's like someone said once, "there's not a Bill Calfee on every corner". I guess that pertains to installing a new barrel as well.


_________________________________



Friend Gingersnap:


You hit the nail on the head....


The trick barrels we use today do have a shorter barrel life......


But they also produce the big numbers.......


_____________________


Gingersnap, the Shilen ratchet has the longest barrel life of the trick barrels...


The Muller Modified 4-MI will equal the life of the ratchet......if not best it...

There's not enough of these in the field yet to make an accurate determination if they live longer than the ratchet, or not.

But they will most certainly equal it......

Plus..........

They're easier to taper lap without washing out the breech end, than the ratchet....


This is why I predict the Muller Modified 4-MI as the barrel of the future.




Next would be the 4 & 5 C Broughtons......which I understand are no longer available..


The Muller 4-MI is next.....

And the 90 driver version of the 4-MI should have an equal barrel life, simply because the vertical driving side will maintain bullet stabilization longer....even when worn...



The Shilen Octagon has a life span similar to the Muller 4-MI, but finding one properly taper lapped is difficult...




The Muller corrugated 8 and its 90 Driver version are still unknown, as far as barrel life....



Although their barrel life will be similar for the same reason the 4-MI and 90 Driver 4-MI have similar barrel lives...



Gingersnap, the "wild card" in all this is the Muller Modified 4-MI.....



Which I predict will be the RFBR barrel of the future..


Even outclassing the Muller Corrugated 8.......which I would not have said a year ago...


Your pistol fool friend, BC
 
CYA accuracy fool friends........





_________________________________________



Today in RFBR we have two things to deal with that we didn't have during the BR-50 days:


Eleyprime and trick barrels, with some of the very best trick barrels being very MI.........



When we shoot enough rounds quickly, so as to start changing the viscosity of the wax by warming the barrel, a bore will start to glaze........


And when the viscosity of the wax thins, the components that make up Eleyprime are devastating on a bore by inducing it to glaze........


And when a bore glazes, the only way to correct it, is to cast a lap and do what amounts to a post chamber lap.


A glazed bore can not be corrected by any method except lapping...



________________




Your pistol fool friend, BC


Bill,

I've quoted part of your post.

If what you're saying about the viscosity of the wax is right, and I think it is, then those people who really, really clean a bore are really wearing out the bore prematurely. It would seem two to three patches would be sufficient.

WS
 
Glazed barrel?

So how does one tell if their barrel has glazed? Can it be scoped, slugged or does it just not shoot as well anymore?

Thank you,

Steve
 
Friend Gingersnap

Bill,

I've quoted part of your post.

If what you're saying about the viscosity of the wax is right, and I think it is, then those people who really, really clean a bore are really wearing out the bore prematurely. It would seem two to three patches would be sufficient.

WS

_________________________



Friend Gingersnap:


Yes and no...............


Friend Gingersnap, how do I put this?


The only factor that will prematurely wear out a bore, other than what normally occurs with the Eleyprime ammo we use today, is shooting so many rounds, fast enough, that the viscosity of the wax thins out....


Then glazing begins to set in....




Gingersnap, how one cleans the bore, even in a worst case scenario where the cleaning doesn't meet the actual needs of the particular barrel's bore, is maybe 10% as damaging as getting the bore too hot with a lot of rounds.




Your friend, BC


________________________


PS:


I want to repeat what I said above, because it is so important:


How one cleans the bore, even in a worst case scenario where the cleaning doesn't meet the actual needs of the particular barrel's bore, is maybe 10% as damaging as getting the bore too hot with a lot of rounds.

 

_________________________



Friend Gingersnap:


Yes and no...............


Friend Gingersnap, how do I put this?


The only factor that will prematurely wear out a bore, other than what normally occurs with the Eleyprime ammo we use today, is shooting so many rounds, fast enough, that the viscosity of the wax thins out....


Then glazing begins to set in....




Gingersnap, how one cleans the bore, even in a worst case scenario where the cleaning doesn't meet the actual needs of the particular barrel's bore, is maybe 10% as damaging as getting the bore too hot with a lot of rounds.




Your friend, BC


________________________


PS:


I want to repeat what I said above, because it is so important:


How one cleans the bore, even in a worst case scenario where the cleaning doesn't meet the actual needs of the particular barrel's bore, is maybe 10% as damaging as getting the bore too hot with a lot of rounds.



Bill,

I've see you use an infrared thermometer and check the temperature of barrels. So how hot it too hot or does it depend on the wax?
 
Friend Gingersnap

Bill,

I've see you use an infrared thermometer and check the temperature of barrels. So how hot it too hot or does it depend on the wax?


______________________________


Friend Gingersnap:


The best way to determine if the bore is hot enough so you need to stop shooting, is to place your finger on top of the barrel right in front of the face of the action...


Then move your finger down the barrel seven or eight inches.....


If you can feel a difference in temp, then stop shooting......unless you're in the middle of a card....


This method works in 40 degree temp or 90 degree temp...


And is for straight profiled barrels, of course.


Your pistol fool friend, BC
 
Back
Top Bottom