GLAZING

Hawkeye Wizard

New member
HI Bill,
You’ve spoken many times about glazing. BBut, what is it? Is it leading or some other substance from the bullet? Or is it some residual from the wax? Or?????
Ron
 
HI Bill,
You’ve spoken many times about glazing. BBut, what is it? Is it leading or some other substance from the bullet? Or is it some residual from the wax? Or?????
Ron

Good question. Would also like to know how to remove it if possible?

Thanks.
 
Friends HW and LWZ

HI Bill,
You’ve spoken many times about glazing. BBut, what is it? Is it leading or some other substance from the bullet? Or is it some residual from the wax? Or?????
Ron


__________________________


Friends HW and LWZ:


I just turned on my machine and saw your posts....


HW, I'm glad you asked the question because you have an extensive background in firearms engineering.....


I'm getting ready to head to the drug store right now...


But quickly...............


I do not know what causes glazing.......exactly......


But I do know how to recognize it............



I've already described the test that determines the difference between bore wear and what I call glazing, on another thread..


Glazing is not leading of the bore.....which can be removed with brushes and solvent...


The only way to remove glazing is by casting a lap and lapping it out........




I've got to run, for now.....


The term glazing:


That's the word I coined to describe it.......there may be a more accurate technical term for it....


Your pistol fool friend, BC


_______________________


PS:


HW, there's probably more "killer" RFBR barrels ruined by glazing, than any other cause, other than actual bore damage from cleaning.....this is assuming the gun is a full on, Class A RFBR contraption..........

 
It's kind of like hearing about an STD when you're younger. What is it and how do I know I have it? Well eventually you will know.

Bill has talked about glazing many times, and what we need to remember is it is a term that he coined for the condition he saw. Whether or not there is an official rifle industry term I have no idea, but I doubt it. Early glazing seems to affect new, unseasoned high MI barrels more than others but any barrel is susceptible.


I could be totally wrong, but I always felt like it was some sort of degrading of the rifling but not necessarily wear, although wear may be part of it. Like something may be restricting the bore and not allowing the barrel to effect the correct spin on the bullet. And it seems to be a restriction or series of restrictions over the entire bore. Bill once told me that if you slug a barrel with a black oxide bullet and it comes out looking chrome plated that will tell you it's glazed.

I've never really seen it that I know of, but I've read everything Bill has said about it and I've talked to him about it. It seems the only real fix is to lap the barrel.
 
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How does one tell if their barrel has glazed?

How does one tell if their barrel has glazed?


How does one tell if their barrel has glazed?



You tell by slugging.



A glazed bore and a worn bore will feel similar when slugged.


With the bore of each clean and dry, the bores will have a mild, sandpaper feel starting at the breech end and lessening as the slug moves toward the muzzle...


Here's the way you tell the difference between glazed and worn:



You have a slug ready, then fire three or four rounds through the bore...


You immediately push the slug through the bore....


If the sandpaper feel is gone the bore is simply worn....



Because the new wax laid down masks the sandpaper feel....



This is why a worn, although still killer bore, takes more and more foulers to condition the bore before starting a card, as the bore wears from use.


___________________


Now, a glazed bore:



Have a slug ready, then fire three or four rounds through the bore...


You immediately push the slug through the bore.....


If the bore is glazed, the sandpaper feel will still be present....



A glazed bore will not accept the wax necessary to mask the sandpaper feel....




Your pistol fool friend, Bill Calfee....

 
Friend HW

HI Bill,
You’ve spoken many times about glazing. BBut, what is it? Is it leading or some other substance from the bullet? Or is it some residual from the wax? Or?????
Ron


_________________________


Friend HW:


Bore glazing is a real, serious condition that develops when one shoots a lot of rounds in such a short period of time, that the viscosity of the wax thins out....


This is complicated by, or totally caused by, the ammo we use today...


Glazing is so serious, that the only way to remove it is to cast a lap and lap it out....



Now.................


What exactly does it do to the surface of the bore to cause this condition?


I don't know......and HW, since you started this subject, which was in great need of discussion, by the way, and since you're an experienced firearms engineer, I hope you can help shed some light...



I've got a bunch of things to say about this subject, of what actually takes place on the surface of the bore to cause glazing.....



But................



I'm going to come out of left field with my first comments....


What I'm about to say I can't prove......but I'm going to say it anyway.




Hawkeye, I do not believe that a carbon steel barrel can be glazed, no matter how hot one gets the barrel by shooting a bunch of rounds quickly, nor, no matter how thin the viscosity of the wax/grease gets, even with the ammo we use today.



Yes, when the viscosity of the wax/grease thins out, the bore will most likely lead up...


But that can be removed....



But the bore won't glaze....



More later.......



Your pistol fool friend, Bill Calfee


____________________


PS:


I can't prove what I said above....

But....

I'll bet the odds of me being right are more than 50/50......


 
Why do I think that carbon steel barrels won't glaze?

Why do I think that carbon steel barrels won't glaze?


CYA accuracy fool friends:


Why do I think that carbon steel barrels won't glaze?


Carbon steel barrels can be blackened by various chemicals...


Which means they will rust.....


Rust in the presence of oxygen is reddish colored...


Rust without the presence of oxygen is blackish colored....



Bluing solutions cause a carbon steel barrel to rust without the presence of oxygen.



And when a barrel rusts, part of the immediate surface structure is removed...




That's why one never blues the bore of a carbon target barrel....




Yes, a carbon steel barrel will lead up.....which can be fairly easily removed...



But I do not believe a carbon steel barrel can be glazed.....which has to be lapped out...


Your pistol fool friend, BC
 
Bill,
I can only think of two choices. Either something from the cartridge had been “plated”onto the bore. Or the steel surface of the bore has been changed in
composition or texture.
My first thought was s change in the texture(surface roughness) 0f the bore. But you said that the feel of the lap hasn’t changed. So that may not be the problem. If you had a junk glazed barrel, it sure would be nice to cut it open and see what the bore looked like.

The problem doesn’t occur with center fires as far as I know. It’s unique to rim fires. And you say that it’s unique to stainless rim fires.
I’d sure like for you to expand on your thoughts.
Hawkeye Wizard
 
Friend HW

Bill,
I can only think of two choices. Either something from the cartridge had been “plated”onto the bore. Or the steel surface of the bore has been changed in
composition or texture.

My first thought was s change in the texture(surface roughness) 0f the bore. But you said that the feel of the lap hasn’t changed. So that may not be the problem. If you had a junk glazed barrel, it sure would be nice to cut it open and see what the bore looked like.

The problem doesn’t occur with center fires as far as I know. It’s unique to rim fires. And you say that it’s unique to stainless rim fires.
I’d sure like for you to expand on your thoughts.
Hawkeye Wizard


______________________________



Friend HW:


I highlighted one of your comments in bold orange.


I don't know why glazing occurs.......I do know how to detect it from simple wore wear, though.


I've already given folks the method to detect glazing from simple bore wear.

______________________________


Something happens to the surface of the bore when too many rounds are fired so rapidly that the viscosity of the was/grease thins out....


When this happens, something in the priming compound does something to the surface of the bore?


In other words, the bullet is allowed to run naked, in effect, through the bore, allowing the priming mixture to do whatever it does to the surface of the bore.....



HW, it's the round following the first naked bullet, after the viscosity change, that does the damage, then the one following it, etc.


Your pistol fool friend, BC
 
Bill,
Apparently you resolved much of the problem by using Iosso. Could you describe your process for using it? And why wouldn’t Iosso resolve the problem completely?
Thanks,
Hawkeye Wizard
 
Friend HW

Bill,
Apparently you resolved much of the problem by using Iosso. Could you describe your process for using it? And why wouldn’t Iosso resolve the problem completely?
Thanks,
Hawkeye Wizard

____________________


Friend HW:


Glazing can not be removed with ISSO or JB.


After about five minutes with ISSO, wet patches and a new brush pulled through the bore I was able to push a slug completely through the bore, with effort.


But the glazing was still present.



I have to assume the ISSO removed any lead film clinging to the bore caused by the glazing....


The light sandpaper feel was still present, both with the bore clean and after I fired a couple of rounds then pushed a slug through the bore.....


The only way this glazing issue can be solved is by casting a "full" lap and lapping it out.



_____________________


You asked:


How to use ISSO......in my opinion.


Never put it on a dry patch and use it that way....


I ruined a double killer barrel using it that way......


I put solvent on a patch, making sure the patch is completely covered.....


Then the ISSO.......then using my guided cleaning rod, like I'm gleaning the bore, I start working the patch through the bore, concentrating more at the leade/breech end of the bore.


Then wet patches followed by pulling a brush back through the bore a time or two.


Then dry patches.....


Do I keep this up till the patches come out completely white?


No..............



When I get the bulk of the ISSO removed by cleaning, I then fire a couple rounds in my bucket, then clean the bore as normal.....

The fired rounds will remove the rest of the ISSO that remains...


The fewer strokes I have to use to do this the better........


Because it only takes one slip-up to ruin a killer bore with the cleaning process, even trying as hard as one can to prevent it...



One more "opinion"....


I much prefer JB to ISSO, because JB has a grease base and does not require adding solvent to the patches like ISSO does...


I repeat, I would never use ISSO directly on a dry patch.......never.



The killer barrel I ruined was caused by me using ISSO without a wetting agent, which caused the cleaning rod to actually form a cold weld deposit from the bore.......


I had to remove this cold weld deposit, carefully, with a needle file then re-polish the rod...


Your pistol fool friend, BC


__________________________


PS:


Hawkeye, some folks may have the impression that this glazing issue is something new...


It's not..............



I put the killer ratchet on Black Death back in 2008.....


In 2015, eight years later, Big Dog brought Black Death down and I cast a lap and de-glazed the bore...

So yes, well seasoned barrels can succumb to the glazing issue.....


Black Death, at that time, had already won the St Louis PSL with the original owner Alan Bates doing the driving.

Then, four years after I de-glazed Death's bore, Big Dog set the greatest "pure accuracy" Big Nationals Record in the history of big time RFBR.....

Which still stands today.....


Hawkeye, if we had not de-glazed Death's bore back in 2015, it would have been impossible for Big Dog to have set that record.

__________________________________________

Big Dog and Black Death - Copy.jpg
 
While I'm thinking about it.....

While I'm thinking about it.....


CYA accuracy fool friends:


This doesn't have anything to do with bore glazing.......


But before it slips my mind...


Calfee scope mounting.......




The way I mount scopes is most certainly non-traditional......that's why I do it like I do.


I had scope issues all my shooting career until I started mounting my scopes like I do..


When we mount our aluminum scopes using two bases spread across the loading port, we invite all kinds of issues.


Including binding up the bedding.....oh yes.




Is it any worse to have faulty bedding binding up the action from the bottom, or, an aluminum scope mounted across the loading port, the weakest part of the action, that expands when the temp rises causing the action to be bound up from the top?



Either way the action is bound up......and accuracy suffers.


CYA accuracy fool friends:


How you mount your scopes is your business....


But...........


If you mount your scope in the traditional way, two rings/bases across the loading port, you're leaving a crumb on the rimfire accuracy table...


If you note Death uses Calfee scope mounting......and did it help Big Dog set his record?


Absolutely it did.......because it guaranteed Big Dog would not have any accuracy affecting scope issues.


Big Dog and Black Death - Copy.jpg


Your pistol fool friend, BC
 
You can get in trouble....

You can get in trouble....


CYA accuracy fool friends:


I've mounted my scopes like I do for a lot of years.....


Here's a picture of the Duke Of Earl during initial testing back in 2008.

DSC02518.jpg


If you notice I'm using Weaver pattern bases......


I used Weaver bases for years without any base slippage issues....



When I first started fooling with dovetail style bases I got into some base slippage issues...


The reason was, the radius on most dovetail style bases is too large....


So instead of the base being V blocked to the top of the action, the base was allowed to slip if banged accidentally.


Therefore...................


Dovetail style bases, actually all style bases, should have a radius of .625".........for actions of 1.350" in diameter...


If you make your own bases, and use a ball mill to cut the bottom radius, you should use a 1.250" diameter mill.


This will give you the proper .625" radius.....



When the proper radius is machined on the bottom of the base, the base will not slip.....


If you do slip a base of this specification, by banging the gun, the rest of the gun will be damaged too...



Calfee style scope mounting prevents scope issues that are present when two bases/rings are used to mount a scope across the loading port of an action.


Your pistol fool friend, BC
 
You can get in trouble....


CYA accuracy fool friends:


I've mounted my scopes like I do for a lot of years.....


Here's a picture of the Duke Of Earl during initial testing back in 2008.


View attachment 2696


If you notice I'm using Weaver pattern bases......


I used Weaver bases for years without any base slippage issues....



When I first started fooling with dovetail style bases I got into some base slippage issues...


The reason was, the radius on most dovetail style bases is too large....


So instead of the base being V blocked to the top of the action, the base was allowed to slip if banged accidentally.


Therefore...................


Dovetail style bases, actually all style bases, should have a radius of .625".........for actions of 1.350" in diameter...


If you make your own bases, and use a ball mill to cut the bottom radius, you should use a 1.250" diameter mill.


This will give you the proper .625" radius.....



When the proper radius is machined on the bottom of the base, the base will not slip.....


If you do slip a base of this specification, by banging the gun, the rest of the gun will be damaged too...



Calfee style scope mounting prevents scope issues that are present when two bases/rings are used to mount a scope across the loading port of an action.


Your pistol fool friend, BC

if I used a ball end mill I would have to be wealthy. I’ve priced them, WOW. I use a lathe and a adjustable cutting tool boring bar between centers. Mount the workpiece on the lathe cross slide on a milling vise etc. Mine have never slipped and with a little ingenuity you can cut any radius you want. Just remember your grade school definition of diameter.
I use my little Myford Super 7 for this work, not the ever dependable Clausing. I’ve made several mounts for friends and no complaints,...yet.

Jerry Halcomb
 
Carbon Steel Barrel

Friend Bill,

Since SS barrels are subject to glazing and carbon steel barrels are perhaps not. Is anyone making competitive carbon steel rimfire barrels?

I know when testing ammo at any of the testing centers it is easy to go through a number if rounds rather quickly and possibly induce the glaze you are referring to. I was unaware of this issue and probably am guilty of running too many rounds through a barrel when testing. Thank you for making us aware of the issue however now we all have to wonder if we have not glazed our barrels. :)

Another pistol loving fool,

Steve
 
Friend JH

if I used a ball end mill I would have to be wealthy. I’ve priced them, WOW. I use a lathe and a adjustable cutting tool boring bar between centers. Mount the workpiece on the lathe cross slide on a milling vise etc. Mine have never slipped and with a little ingenuity you can cut any radius you want. Just remember your grade school definition of diameter.
I use my little Myford Super 7 for this work, not the ever dependable Clausing. I’ve made several mounts for friends and no complaints,...yet.

Jerry Halcomb


___________________


Friend JH:


Yes, an excellent method for one without a 1.250" diameter ball mill....


Your pistol fool friend, BC
 
Friend Az_Speed

Friend Bill,

Since SS barrels are subject to glazing and carbon steel barrels are perhaps not. Is anyone making competitive carbon steel rimfire barrels?

I know when testing ammo at any of the testing centers it is easy to go through a number if rounds rather quickly and possibly induce the glaze you are referring to. I was unaware of this issue and probably am guilty of running too many rounds through a barrel when testing. Thank you for making us aware of the issue however now we all have to wonder if we have not glazed our barrels. :)

Another pistol loving fool,

Steve

_____________________________


Friend Az_Speed:


If I had a new build, and if I had to use a testing facility to try to find killer ammo, I'd advise the tester to make sure to feel the top of the barrel from time to time, right in front of the action face, and if it was getting warm to the touch, to stop testing.



Seasoned bores are not quite as susceptible to glazing as are brand new bores.......


Although, seasoned bores will glaze too......



Friend Az, this glazing issue is a much greater problem than most shooters realize.....


There's only a small handful of "killer" RFBR guns in the world.......a very small handful...


I'll wager that at least 50% of the so-so shooting RFBR guns have glazed bores......the percentage actually may be higher.


Your pistol fool friend, BC


_______________________________


PS:


If I had not de-glazed the bore of Black Death back in 2015, Big Dog could not have set his amazing ARA Indoor Nationals Record.


DSC05055 - Copy (5) - Copy.jpg


Az, let's start a new thread and discuss carbon steel barrels.........like those made of 4140, for instance.....
 
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