Is anything applicable to the DiOrio V-3?

As I said in this thread..........http://www.wwaccuracy.com/showthread.php?t=6405

The blue liner has tiny ball bearing in it, so should be almost frictionless.

I don't believe anything is applicable to the Turbo...

Bill Calfee said:

Is anything applicable to the DiOrio V-3?


CYA accuracy fool friends:


Is there anything on this PAS ignition centerfire breech bolt that would be applicable to the DiOrio V-3, as an improvement?


The only thing I see that would be an improvement, is the roller bearing on the 6 o'clock cocking piece teat...


This would be a functional improvement only, not an accuracy enhancement improvement.


The 12 o'clock cocking teat, and rollers, is not needed on the V-3.


View attachment 3028


In my opinion:


I can see the "seemingly valid logic" for having both 12 and 6 o'clock cocking teats, rollers or not, because of the blue material sandwiched between the OD of the firing pin and ID of the breech bolt.....


I used the term "seemingly valid logic" above for this reason:


The 12 o'clock area of the firing pin, just in front of the firing pin head, is a bearing surface during cocking.


This 12 o'clock surface is a bearing surface whether there's twin cocking piece teats, or, the single teat at 6 o'clock, like in the late V-1 and V-3 DiOrio Turbo actions...


(This is one reason Anthony DiOrio deleted the 12 o'clock cocking teat and ramp from his late V-1 and V-3's.

Which is an improvement...)


This 12 o'clock bearing surface is caused by the upward pressure of the transfer bar, of the trigger, pushing up on the bottom of the cocking piece, which is due to the angled engagement surfaces of the Remington pattern trigger.


This upward pressure is present in all actions that use the Remington pattern trigger....


Including the PAS ignition centerfire bolt in the above picture....


In other words, the 12 o'clock portion of the blue material of this breech bolt's firing pin, is still a bearing surface.


This is why I used the term "seemingly valid logic" in my statement above...


I really see no other features of this PAS ignition centerfire breech bolt that would be an accuracy enhancement to the DiOrio V-1 or V-3..



Your pistol fool friend, BC


____________________


PS:


"But Calfee, maybe the blue material would be more friction free than the metal to metal contact of the DiOrio V-1 and V-3?"

I would have to see demonstrations before I could decide if there's a benefit in this area, or not.


In other words, I'd have to run my 10 round case head penetration test on both, then see if a greater percentage of 10-0 runs were produced by the blue material, or, simple metal to metal contact.

Click to expand...

_____________________________



On second thought, I don't believe anything is applicable to the Turbo...


CYA accuracy fool friends:


After pondering things for a few minutes after I posted the above post, I don't believe anything is applicable to the Turbo...


Here's why:


Even if the blue material produced slightly more 10 round case head penetration runs of 10-0, logistically it would be difficult to incorporate it into the much smaller diameter bolt body of the Turbo...


And second......


Yes, the roller bearing would reduce cocking friction, and would not need to be greased....


But..............


Grease could still build up between the firing pin and bolt body of the Turbo, since the locking lugs, being in the rear, would still need lube.....


Where-as......


The locking lugs of this centerfire action are in the front...........so grease there would not migrate between the firing pin and the inside of the bolt body...


Therefore, I see no features of this PAS ignition centerfire action that would be an accuracy enhancement for the Turbo.


Save for the functional enhancement of ease of bolt lift.......which I've not found to be an issue with the V-3 anyway.



Your pondering fool friend, BC

Bill Calfee said:

_____________________________



On second thought, I don't believe anything is applicable to the Turbo...


CYA accuracy fool friends:


After pondering things for a few minutes after I posted the above post, I don't believe anything is applicable to the Turbo...


Here's why:



Even if the blue material produced slightly more 10 round case head penetration runs of 10-0, logistically it would be difficult to incorporate it into the much smaller diameter bolt body of the Turbo...


And second......


Yes, the roller bearing would reduce cocking friction, and would not need to be greased....


But..............


Grease could still build up between the firing pin and bolt body of the Turbo, since the locking lugs, being in the rear, would still need lube.....


Where-as......


The locking lugs of this centerfire action are in the front...........so grease there would not migrate between the firing pin and the inside of the bolt body...


Therefore, I see no features of this PAS ignition centerfire action that would be an accuracy enhancement for the Turbo.


Save for the functional enhancement of ease of bolt lift.......which I've not found to be an issue with the V-3 anyway.



Your pondering fool friend, BC

Click to expand...

At the risk of sounding foolish (which I may be) I'll say this:

I do see the advantages from using some of these ideas in a RFBR action.

Bill you certainly know more about RFBR actions than any other human being on the planet, but you have spent most of your time working on new actions.

Actions that you prepared to go out and compete. Everyone knows how successful they have been.

Being one that has shot thousands and thousands of rounds with those rifles I can tell you they don't stay like new forever.

They loosen up over time. I've seen the jewelling wiped off bolts, and the wear that results. The feel of the actions change over time.

There are guys shooting 200+ cards a year just in competition with these rifles.

Many of the older rifles that are still turning out big numbers haven't been shot a lot, or have been updated, parts changed etc.

I believe the friction reducing features on this Bix and Andy bolt may help reducing that wear.

On the down side they could induce new problems we don't have today.

One thing for sure. A new action would generate new interest, stir things up a bit, and that would be a good thing.

Right now we live in basically a one option world.

I say that because has far as I can tell Turbo isn't tuning out anything, 10X has quit, and the new Vudoo has failed to show up.

I'm told Vudoo will show up eventually, but even so, it isn't proven to be up to task.

I'm just not ready to accept our current designs are the last word in RFBR actions.

Perhaps just dreaming.

TKH

Friend TKH

Tony K Harper said:

At the risk of sounding foolish (which I may be) I'll say this:

I do see the advantages from using some of these ideas in a RFBR action.

Bill you certainly know more about RFBR actions than any other human being on the planet, but you have spent most of your time working on new actions.

Actions that you prepared to go out and compete. Everyone knows how successful they have been.

Being one that has shot thousands and thousands of rounds with those rifles I can tell you they don't stay like new forever.

They loosen up over time. I've seen the jewelling wiped off bolts, and the wear that results. The feel of the actions change over time.

There are guys shooting 200+ cards a year just in competition with these rifles.

Many of the older rifles that are still turning out big numbers haven't been shot a lot, or have been updated, parts changed etc.

I believe the friction reducing features on this Bix and Andy bolt may help reducing that wear.

On the down side they could induce new problems we don't have today.

One thing for sure. A new action would generate new interest, stir things up a bit, and that would be a good thing.

Right now we live in basically a one option world.

I say that because has far as I can tell Turbo isn't tuning out anything, 10X has quit, and the new Vudoo has failed to show up.

I'm told Vudoo will show up eventually, but even so, it isn't proven to be up to task.

I'm just not ready to accept our current designs are the last word in RFBR actions.

Perhaps just dreaming.

TKH

Click to expand...

_________________________________


Friend TKH:


Your comment in bold orange:


Tony, there are no "accuracy enhancing advantages" in this PAS centerfire action that can be applied to the Turbo.......

Functional advantages, possibly...?


Your comment in bold red:


Tony, nor am I willing to accept our current designs as the ultimate.....


But......................


There are simply no "accuracy enhancing advantages" that could be applied to the Turbo on this PAS centerfire action.


None........


Your pistol fool friend, BC

____________________


PS:

Want a conundrum?


Tony, depending on the weight of the firing pin of this PAS centerfire action, it may actually have an "accuracy advantage" to learn from the Turbo.....

I'm most serious....

Bill Calfee said:

_________________________________


Friend TKH:


Your comment in bold orange:


Tony, there are no "accuracy enhancing advantages" in this PAS centerfire action that can be applied to the Turbo.......

Functional advantages, possibly...?


Your comment in bold red:


Tony, nor am I willing to accept our current designs as the ultimate.....


But......................


There are simply no "accuracy enhancing advantages" that could be applied to the Turbo on this PAS centerfire action.


None........


Your pistol fool friend, BC

____________________


PS:

Want a conundrum?


Tony, depending on the weight of the firing pin of this PAS centerfire action, it may actually have an "accuracy advantage" to learn from the Turbo.....

I'm most serious....

Click to expand...

Bill,

I bow to your superior knowledge and realize you are most likely correct. There may be no accuracy advantage. But as you said, there may be a functional advantage.

Until someone steps up and builds something new we are stuck with what we have.

Perhaps Timo is correct we can't have better accuracy until we get better ammo, or someone makes those compensating barrels.

I think we have about an equal chance at either of those becoming a reality.

Damn, I hate to be so negative.

TKH

Today's World

"I say that because has far as I can tell Turbo isn't tuning out anything, 10X has quit, and the new Vudoo has failed to show up."

Tony,

I copied a quote from your post above. I can understand your (and probably many others) perspective regarding new product development in the RFBR market since most of the information/marketing people garner comes from internet forums. There have been many new developments in the RFBR market over the past year or two and the internet forums and the various social media platforms seem to be the preferred vehicle manufacturers/developers use to get information out to the masses. My company manly utilizes social media to keep people informed regarding our current products and the release of new products. I've never been one to "put the cart before the horse" and post about new products during the developmental stages and certainly never before our own in depth testing of potential new products takes place. That being said, concerning Turbo, a lack of forum and or social media posts on our part doesn't mean new products are not being developed and tested. A very wise man and someone I consider a mentor told me "Everyone wants to be somebody and make a name for themselves in life", I find his statement to hold true for every human being walking the Earth. I've also learned some people have a greater need in their life to obtain recognition and praise from others and will conduct themselves in a manner, both good and bad, to fulfill that which they desire based on the level of their need. I've never been one who needs or wants recognition, at the end of the day I'm no better than anyone else, I'm just a guy trying to earn a living doing what I love to do, designing and making "things".

The best way for me to convey how I look at the need to continually develop new and better products can be expressed by the following poem from Robert Frost, specifically the last line of the poem:

"Nature’s first green is gold,
Her hardest hue to hold.
Her early leaf’s a flower;
But only so an hour.
Then leaf subsides to leaf.
So Eden sank to grief,
So dawn goes down to day.
Nothing gold can stay."

Best Regards, Anthony DiOrio

"She should have died hereafter.
There would have been a time for such a word.
Tomorrow, and tomorrow, and tomorrow
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day
To the last syllable of recorded time.
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle.
Life’s but a walking shadow, a poor player
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage,
And then is heard no more. It is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing."

W. Shakespeare Mac Beth

And yet some choose to dream.

TKH

Sorry I understand nothing about poetry. Maybe my family comes down from trees little later than others and thats why.
But dreaming a lot.

Now I dream that I can send few bricks old Olimp-R ammo (made on 80s) to Anthony.

Somebody maybe thinks that has time golden memories?.No. Millimeter was same lenght on 80s as it is now.

Last evidence to me happened on London Olympics 2012 when Mr Martynov humiliated others with old Annie and with about 27 years old Olimp-R ammo.
Took gold with new World Record.

I am dreaming that then I see Anthonys new range records on FB pages.

And I am also dreaming that if human being has done near ultimate ammo there in Klimovsk on 80s,it is possible also today.
( I know there was behind goverments "ammo doping" money & resources).

Lapua Germany has gone slowly little better,but mass producing etc.has their limits.

Thank You Anthony for your excellent work to RF world.

Most of RF group spread is coming from ammo,but this dont mean that RF developing has got its ultimate point.

Dreaming again:

Artificial intelligence guided barrel what gives us positive compensation?

But must we take care of disease or symptoms?

BR, Timo

Ps.Dimple is not the main point but priming mass consistent force is one of the details what they made better (ultimate) than nowadays.(Amongst few other serious details)

Friend Anthony DiOrio

Friend Anthony DiOrio


Friend AD:


Our gun fool friend Timo posted this picture of a PAS ignition centerfire action and we were discussing whether anything about it would be an "accuracy advantage" for the V-3.....V-1




AD, after studying it for a couple of days now, I can find no feature of this PAS ignition centerfire action that would be an "accuracy enhancement" for the V-3......or V-1...


The roller bearing at the front of the cocking teat, and the one at the rear, might be a "functional enhancement" to the ease of cocking, but, I've not had any issues with ease of cocking on both the V-3 and 10-X three lug actions.

The roller bearing at the rear of the cocking teat, which rides the slot in the tang for resistance for cocking, might also slightly ease friction as the firing pin moves forward, when fired....


But.............there's not enough resistance in this area anyway, so how beneficial it would actually be to enhancing accuracy is extremely low.......if any....


In other words, re-engineering the V-3/V-1 with these roller bearings, in my opinion, would be a waste of your time.


Again this is my opinion...


Now.............


I did a doodle.......





AD if you notice, I eliminated the 12 o'clock cocking teat from the firing pin..........


Just as on the original Turbo, with its two cocking teats, 6 and 12 o'clock, the one at 12 o'clock isn't needed.


There's two reasons for this:


First of all, the resistance to cocking for all Remington pattern triggers comes from the cocking teat riding the slot in the tang of the action.......(unlike the 52 Winchester PAS ignition, which is what the Turbo was based on)


And second:


It matters not whether there's either one or two cocking teats, the upward pressure of the firing pin against the inside of the breech bolt body, right in front of the firing pin head, is identical......


Having that 12 o'clock cocking teat does not change this fact, any.


Therefore, the 12 o'clock cocking teat is totally useless....


This is why you eliminated it on the V-3 and V-1...


I've got one more comment I want to make about the blue material surrounding the firing pin of this PAS ignition center fire action.....


Is it a "measurable" benefit in reducing friction as the firing pin moves forward, when fired?


The answer is, no.


I'll explain why later...


Your pistol fool friend, BC


________________________________


PS:


Friend AD, I have a dream too, that these beautiful pistols will one day soon be available for the masses.

Bill wrote:

Is it a "measurable" benefit in reducing friction as the firing pin moves forward, when fired?


The answer is, no.

--------

I am on same line.I think friction changing problem is not mostly between firing pin & action,but it is mostly between spring & firing pin if it is on some contraption.

Anthony! If you read this.I send you with email real gun fool idea to this.You can make with it what you like after you have stop laughing and smiling.

BR, Timo

It isn't what it seems......

It isn't what it seems......


Friend AD:


It isn't what it seems......here's what I mean:





Say we have a V-3 and this PAS centerfire action fit with the same rate mainsprings.....say 24 pounds.


And let's say both springs are compressed to the same length, when the two actions are at battery.


Both the V-3 and this PAS CF action will have approx 24 pounds of upward pressure against the inside of the breech bolt body, caused by the angled engagement surfaces of the Remington pattern trigger.

Again this 24 pounds is at battery.


A comment here:


If the 24 pounds of upward pressure were maintained after the trigger is pulled, all the way to the primer....

Then yes, the blue material which is supposed to reduce friction, as I understand it, would be much, much superior than metal to metal contact....


But...........that's not what actually takes place when the triggers are pulled.


When the triggers of both the V-3 and this PAS CF action are pulled, there's something on the order of 8 to 12 ounces of upward pressure applied, assuming both actions use a modified FF trigger...


Therefore............


The blue friction reducing materials benefit would be almost impossible to measure.......compared to the metal to metal friction.



Now.......................here's the biggie:



A well blueprinted, MD-PAS ignition RFBR action is capable of producing 10-0 case head penetration runs.


I'm not a mathematician, but, I don't believe there's a number higher than 10-0........



In conclusion:


There's no characteristic about this PAS ignition CF action that would be an accuracy enhancement for the V-3/V-1...



Your pistol fool friend, BC


_____________________


PS:


I want to say this again.....


A PAS ignition CF action is a wonderful idea....


It should have the same uniformity of ignition benefit over SAP ignition CF actions that MD-PAS rimfire actions have over all versions of SAP ignition rimfire actions.

BnA CF action

Bill,

The blue material is actually a linear roller bearing used to reduce friction and center the firing pin assembly as it moves fore and aft. A few years ago in Las Vegas at the annual Shot Show, I met with Andy Atzl to and picked up the first prototype 2 stage triggers he produced for our Turbo 3P rifles. Andy was at shot show to promote his triggers as well as this CF action which features a Titanium receiver body. The design is impressive to say the least and it cycles very smooth, a true engineering accomplishment. I've also seen the roller bearing concept used on the 3 lug BAT CF actions and I actually purchased some roller bearings several years ago to try out on the Turbo lifting lobes of the firing pin slides but I never got around to fooling with them. Your post reminded me about the bearings and I dug through my desk and found the unopened sleeve of bearings, maybe someday I'll get around to fooling with them when I get some "spare time". After I get caught up with the Turbo XP pistol project, I have some ideas I want to get to trying that may provide additional refinements to assist in the never ending search for ultimate accuracy.

Best Regards, Anthony

A lot of smiles.....

DiOrioMFG said:

Bill,

The blue material is actually a linear roller bearing used to reduce friction and center the firing pin assembly as it moves fore and aft. A few years ago in Las Vegas at the annual Shot Show, I met with Andy Atzl to and picked up the first prototype 2 stage triggers he produced for our Turbo 3P rifles. Andy was at shot show to promote his triggers as well as this CF action which features a Titanium receiver body. The design is impressive to say the least and it cycles very smooth, a true engineering accomplishment. I've also seen the roller bearing concept used on the 3 lug BAT CF actions and I actually purchased some roller bearings several years ago to try out on the Turbo lifting lobes of the firing pin slides but I never got around to fooling with them. Your post reminded me about the bearings and I dug through my desk and found the unopened sleeve of bearings, maybe someday I'll get around to fooling with them when I get some "spare time". After I get caught up with the Turbo XP pistol project, I have some ideas I want to get to trying that may provide additional refinements to assist in the never ending search for ultimate accuracy.

Best Regards, Anthony

Click to expand...

_________________________


Friend AD:


A bunch of smiles went up around the world when folks read your comment....

Including me.....


Your pistol fool friend, BC


______________________


PS:


These are the most unique and fun to shoot RFBR guns on Earth.....


And they don't back up from no rifles!

Friend Anthony DiOrio and CYA pistol fool friends

Friend Anthony DiOrio


Friend AD and CYA pistol fool friends:


A Turbo pistol could be built on the existing V-3.....


So why do we need an XP length V-3?


Stocks........


The length of the current V-3 is not long enough to work in the center grip stocks that are currently available..


The stocks that are currently available are are based on the XP length receiver...


Remember, these are center grip stocks and the front bedding screw goes up right in front of the pistol grip, so this can't easily be modified...actually it would be a nightmare...


Now..............


I use the factory stock, modified.......most folks would not like them, but, the stocks they would be more comfortable with are fashioned in the same way....


When I built my MD-PAS pistol I had to use an early 10-X action.......because it is about .150" longer than the V-3..


And even at that I had to machine a spacer to bring it to full XP length...









The spacer has a shoulder that is clamped between the barrel shoulder and action face....


The XP recoil lug, for the trigger linkage, is held on with set screws......



Anyway..................


This is why we need an XP length V-3 action....


Anthony, a prediction:


Once the XP length V-3's become available, slowly down the road folks starting a new "rifle" build with gravitate to them....


Simply for the extra bedding length........


There would be no sense in giving up the extra bedding length when starting a new build.....

_______________________


There's nothing in the world of RFBR like these pistols......nor anything more fun to shoot...





I can't wait to see folks like Brian Brandt and Todd Wooten shooting one of these pistols...


They don't back up from no rifles.....


Your pistol fool friend, BC