22 LR ammo from hell part ??????

[Timo]

Scratching my head and thinking aloud.

Years ago I was shooting on our inside ranges right side (before range owner Lappeenranta town repaired it) lights was so that I can see bullets flying many times from the scope. Not all shots but many times.
There was lots that bullet "flashed" left and up about 10-11 oclock and lots bullets "flashed" just over dot.12 oclock.

Put chrono 10 feet from muzzle and noticed that those lots what "flashed" on 10-11 oclock where sensitive to speed variation to vertical spread.Are they going bigger spiral?

Everybody likes to find lots with small vertical. Small speed variation is not always giving small vertical.

You can have perfect tuned RF and some lots are giving bigger vertical even speed variation is smaller than other lot which gives small vertical with bigger speed variation.....

I dont have equipments how I can see what lots are flying bigger spiral or smaller spiral.

It is said that bullets are flying with their tails. Something happens to some lots bullets tails?

When I have calibrated bullets surface lenghts absolut same mostly vertical goes smaller but not from all lots.

Is this bullets outcoming surface lenght versus thickness versus lead hardness more sensitive what we can understand?

OK. Better find good lots by shooting than thinking those but human being likes to know why something is happening?

But now I start snowmobile and scratching my head how I can get perches strike to my lures.

BR,

Timo

 

[MikeMcAllister]

Scratching my head and thinking aloud.

Years ago I was shooting on our inside ranges right side (before range owner Lappeenranta town repaired it) lights was so that I can see bullets flying many times from the scope. Not all shots but many times.
There was lots that bullet "flashed" left and up about 10-11 oclock and lots bullets "flashed" just over dot.12 oclock.

Put chrono 10 feet from muzzle and noticed that those lots what "flashed" on 10-11 oclock where sensitive to speed variation to vertical spread.Are they going bigger spiral?

Everybody likes to find lots with small vertical. Small speed variation is not always giving small vertical.

You can have perfect tuned RF and some lots are giving bigger vertical even speed variation is smaller than other lot which gives small vertical with bigger speed variation.....

I dont have equipments how I can see what lots are flying bigger spiral or smaller spiral.

It is said that bullets are flying with their tails. Something happens to some lots bullets tails?

When I have calibrated bullets surface lenghts absolut same mostly vertical goes smaller but not from all lots.

Is this bullets outcoming surface lenght versus thickness versus lead hardness more sensitive what we can understand?

OK. Better find good lots by shooting than thinking those but human being likes to know why something is happening?

But now I start snowmobile and scratching my head how I can get perches strike to my lures.

BR,

Timo

Good thoughts and questions.

One issue I have been thinking about, which might be related to what you are observing, is bullet balance. In other words, how do we, as consumers, know how accurately the bullets are manufactured? And seating/crimping accuracy? We cannot measure rimfire bullets, because they are already loaded into cartridges when we buy them. Does the crimping of the case distort the bullet at all, for example?

If a bullet is out of balance, which would make it 'wobble' somewhat in flight, would this explain what you are seeing? I have seen many posts about rimfire priming and powder, but I do not remember (?) seeing much about bullets.

The only hole I can poke in my own theory is that an out of balance bullet should show an even distribution of inaccuracy; not just vertical dispersion. Unless there is something else at play, like maybe wind in conjunction with an unbalanced bullet.

No conclusions here; just more questions. I am very interested in your additional thoughts.

--Mike McAllister

 

[PedroS]

There's a phenomenon that I can't explain.
In certain ranges, and with sun at a certain angle, we can see bullet trajectory. And some bullets go wilde, where others go "smooth".
Funny enough, majority of them go to where they are expected to land...
Question is: How come?

 

[Timo]

Mike took up bullet balance.I have seen Lapua lots during years where bullet thickness is 5,67 mm (0,2232") and just measured one lot what one our RFBR shooter used on last season.It is 5,71 mm (0,2248").Measured without wax.
Huge different if you think or compare to barrels measurements.
Bullets are coming out from muzzle with same thickness what ever thickness bullet is when you load it to chamber.
But thick bullet ofcourse has more lenght when coming out from the muzzle.

Bullets center of mass are then different.There is maybe something because my good lots thickness to my RF has been 5,67-5,68 mm. from factory.Most of thick bullet lots where I calibrate surface lenght shorter has gone better.

I think our air rifle friends has done good work with their slugs and hopely 22 LR ammo makers are taking some things from their ideas.

Those centlemen Sterne & Morris are on something and wise guys:

www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=209315.0

When bullet is flying it dont know was his back air pressure or powder gas.

More food to thoughts bullet balance.When our CF friends make bullets to 6 PPC they change 0,5 grain (0,032 g) lead weight and thisway they change bullet center of mass back or forward and there are big difference to groups.Bullets surface lenght is not changing.

We can be little jealous to our airrifle and CF friends because they can make their own bullets.

Ps.More wood to thoughts 2.When I make loads to CF rifles 6 PPC, 6 mm Beggs and wild cat 6 JMS normally 100 meter and 300 meter are going linear group size.Lets say if 100 meter groups are 5-10 mm then 300 meter groups are 25-40 mm.

BUT

I tested old Berger 71 grain HPBT bullet and it gives 12-15 mm 5 shot groups to 100 meter.I was amazed when shooted it to 300 meter and I got 3 five shot groups 15/17/21 mm.

Maybe this Bergers video explain this:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pF8W5liSRc

Spiral or not spiral is the question.Maybe you hang me but now I say something radical:

*Bigger spiral flying lots needs smaller speed variation than smaller spiral flyings and MAYBE bigger spiral flyings are more sensitive to wind......

BR,Timo

 

[PedroS]

That's a big possibility, Timo.
What we do need is a camera system that can visualise the full bullet pathway, and being able to compute the trajectory with the spiral.

Another interesting point... larger vs smaller bullets. As you say they came out longer for the larger and shorter for the smaller. Have you experienced better accuracy with one or another?

 

[MikeMcAllister]

That's a big possibility, Timo.
What we do need is a camera system that can visualise the full bullet pathway, and being able to compute the trajectory with the spiral.

Another interesting point... larger vs smaller bullets. As you say they came out longer for the larger and shorter for the smaller. Have you experienced better accuracy with one or another?

I agree we need a camera system like you describe.

Thinking more about bullet balance and what things can affect it: Has anyone ever tried to capture a rimfire bullet after firing a live round, in such a manner as to not change the bullet in any way. Lead is so soft that I imagine it would be difficult to achieve.

I wonder about the crimp. I have removed the bullet from enough live rounds myself, for slugging the bore, that I know the crimp holds the bullet tight. What happens when the bullet leaves the case? Does the case open from pressure, or does the bullet pull away from the crimp, which could distort the base of the bullet?

Centerfire bench-rest shooters do not use a crimp. I wish one of the high quality match rimfire ammunition manufacturers would produce a 40-grain jacketed bullet .22 Long Rifle round, with no crimp.

Is there some law that says .22 Long Rifle has to be soft lead bullets with lube and a crimp?

Sorry for all the questions. Just thinking about variables and trying to control them...

--Mike McAllister

 

[Timo]

Pedro! Another interesting point... larger vs smaller bullets. As you say they came out longer for the larger and shorter for the smaller. Have you experienced better accuracy with one or another?

Most of shooters dont know what their barrels measurements exactly are .And if we are "cutting the hair" different riflings make also little sense how it form bullet lenght.

Why I intrested this? Old times there was Lapua Master M and L. There was about 0,03 mm (0,0012") difference of bullets thickness. Old high quality prone shooters tested a lot of lots and they said to me that other barrels likes L and other likes M.

Other thing was that why my RF likes mostly Lapua bullets 5,67-5,68 mm BUT also likes RWS bullets what are 5,715 mm.Scratching my head why?
First I was thinking that RWS little faster speed stabilize longer bullet but then I noticed that RWS surface lenght is shorter than Lapua and they are coming pretty much same lenght out of muzzle.

I am not sure can we fiind absolut linear function between barrel dimensions versus bullet thickness and outcoming lenght but my small world studies has given references to this.

As said to real competition shooter is better not to waste time thinking those too much .Better continue to test lots by shooting and be satisfied when find killer lot.

But to me this "ammo from hell" is small hobby and thinking how it is possible that so small ammo has so many "moving patrs".

And as we know about killer lots. When find killler lot maybe only 4-6/10 RF shoot it killer way.

Only ammo what likes near every RF was old Russian "hand made" Olimp R from years 1980-1989.But fallen milk far long time ago.

Ps.When I was talking here this "spiral or not" someone said is it possible to shoot through few electronic targets an see something?

But I have joked that excellent ammo gives groups that 22 LR case dont go through the hole.1980 made Olimp R can make those,
With those I believe small moments that I can shoot.
Maybe now I must change to 308 cases or on windy days to shotgun cases-.

BR, Timo

 

[PedroS]

Yeah, the deeper we try to go, the more we feel armless... meaning testing lots continue to be the only thing worthwhile with these .22lr ammo.

Funny enough, we are complaining, because we need better ammo, but the more the manufactures produce, the more they sell. So, at the end of the day, market shows a very distinct truth: we are happy!

Another point that I have searched an answer without success, is why some lots prefer right wind, and others left wind. I always tend to say it's a barrel preference, but lately I have a couple of barrels, that with different Lapua lots, shot better right or left wind, depending of the feeding lot. So... ?

 

[Timo]

Pedro! You give us more food to head scrathing. Soon last hairs are going...

Have You noticed only more horizontal wind drifting to left and right or is there also difference with vertical when there is left or right wind?

I am "rooted" to this bigger / smaller spiral. Seen to 300 meter CF shooting some odd things what dont go linear to ballistic programs.

I asked from one high quality ballistician is it so that bigger spiral flying bullet is more sensitive to wind? He has not any data but he answered that it is maybe possible.

Long time ago here Lapua shooting center keeper and one top prone RF shooter made inside range tests to wind drifting with blowers/ fans and they find the same as Mr McCoy find that slower 22 LR ammo has little smaller wind drift than faster.

But I have not seen any data about this spiral or not case.Because we have no equipments to get documents from flying bullets.

BR, Timo

Ps. Wild though from ratched rifling...Right coming wind "touch" bullets bezel or facet and left coming wind "touch" bullets straight "face"....
Just thinking aloud.

 

[PedroS]

Timo, that's why I have no hairs... eheheh

I noticed mainly horizontal drift, but also a small vertical, but horizontal the most.

And for the last hairs on your head... I have a barrel that with a certain Lapua lot, almost doesn't move with left wind, even with mild to strong, but it's wild with right ones.
Don't ask me why...