john prince
New member
- Joined
- Nov 8, 2023
- Messages
- 25
- Reaction score
- 7
One of the beautiful things about ARA....you can shoot a zero on a bull on every target and still win the match. You just need to be really, really good on the other 24.
Question for anyone...
- Thread starter Bill Calfee
- Start date
Jerry Halcomb
Administrator
- Joined
- May 2, 2015
- Messages
- 307
- Reaction score
- 27
John
Your succinct correct answer. I only have one response.
The IR50 target takes away the bad bullet “excuse” if it is factual then your right!
If I’m right and I bet I am “sometimes“ a bad wind read or rifle handling etc. caused the missed shot. I’ve shot enough IR to know the target can lull you into complacency. Touching those 10s seem easy then bam you let one leak out.
My opinion!!
Jerry
Your succinct correct answer. I only have one response.
The IR50 target takes away the bad bullet “excuse” if it is factual then your right!
If I’m right and I bet I am “sometimes“ a bad wind read or rifle handling etc. caused the missed shot. I’ve shot enough IR to know the target can lull you into complacency. Touching those 10s seem easy then bam you let one leak out.
My opinion!!
Jerry
john prince
New member
- Joined
- Nov 8, 2023
- Messages
- 25
- Reaction score
- 7
IR-50 is mentally exhausting, much more so than ARA. Todd Wooten always talked about that and I had to find out for myself, it's true.
John, from my experience, I find shooting IR much less exhausting/stressful than ARA. Perhaps that's because I shoot 3-gun and hardly any IR UL. Having 30min seemed like an eternity when I first started shooting it after starting RFBR with ARA UL. Now I love it and use way more of the clock than I used to. You can be more patient and selective on conditions if they get squirrely on you. You don't rush your sighters as much and have the time to shoot more if needed with less 'clock stress'. I am pretty sure you have a ton more IR UL (20min clock) shooting under your belt than 3-gun or Sporter. Those extra 10mins puts me in a different frame of mind......a good one I may add. And.......you only have to shoot 3 cards. Compared to 4-6 cards, as most ARA clubs shoot, it is a lot less physical fatigue. As most know, physical fatigue can/will affect mental fatigue.
I will also agree with Jerry to some point, fliers are not always fliers from an ammo perspective. IME, most are missed conditions or rifle/rest handling issues. His other opinion is spot on about shooting what I call 'soft' 10's. I used to do that because I wanted that 250. I changed that to shooting for the X and my scores went up along with my X-counts. As Jerry stated, that 'leak out' deal will get you when trying to shoot a 'soft' 250 card.
JMO.........Scott
Bullseye-T
New member
- Joined
- Jan 19, 2022
- Messages
- 27
- Reaction score
- 4
Your math is inaccurate and I’ll explain why. The worst possible 250 would be 2 bullets 180 degrees apart barely touching the line of the 10 ring. It is possible to have a 249 with 2 bullets 180 degrees apart with one bullet barely covering the x and the other bullet barely missing the ten ring, in this case the group of the 249 would be smaller than the soft 250. I personally would take a rifle with a 249/24x over a rifle with a 250/0x every day of the week.
Thanks Todd
Todd, pease read post #18
You have to compare the same dispersion for both groups.
Bullseye-T
New member
- Joined
- Jan 19, 2022
- Messages
- 27
- Reaction score
- 4
This doesn’t make sense to me.
The example I gave would have a smaller group over 25 shots than the soft 250…period. If I have an IR50/50 target on hand I will draw it out and take a picture to show you how a 249 24x could be a smaller group than a Zero X count 250. Very possible and likely the 249 24x would be smaller because how many shots have you yourself taken where the bullet just barely (few thousands) misses the 10 ring?
I have tried to explain, but I think you don't understand statistics...
But ok, let's take your exemple... so, a 248 23x could be smaller than a 249 24x...
- Joined
- Apr 29, 2015
- Messages
- 9,667
- Reaction score
- 218
A most interesting discussion...
Friend john prince:
One of my favorite RFBR memories is of Todd Wooten taking SPEC 4, which you originally owned john, and winning his first PSL with it.
Thank you john for putting SPEC 4 in Todd's hands.
Your LBK and pistol fool friend, Bill Calfee
Friend john prince:
One of my favorite RFBR memories is of Todd Wooten taking SPEC 4, which you originally owned john, and winning his first PSL with it.
Thank you john for putting SPEC 4 in Todd's hands.
Your LBK and pistol fool friend, Bill Calfee
john prince
New member
- Joined
- Nov 8, 2023
- Messages
- 25
- Reaction score
- 7
I should have gone ahead and put it into a different stock, Todd did and the rest is history.
- Joined
- Apr 29, 2015
- Messages
- 9,667
- Reaction score
- 218
Friend john prince:
Todd won the PSL with SPEC 4 in the original stock....
Your LBK and pistol fool friend, Bill Calfee
Bullseye-T
New member
- Joined
- Jan 19, 2022
- Messages
- 27
- Reaction score
- 4
I understand that it is not very likely but yes it would be possible for a 248 23x to be smaller than a 249 24x. All depends on how the missed 10 ring bullets fall. This is the biggest problem with IR5050 IMO. Is that someone that has a more accurate rifle can shoot a better X count but miss one for a 249 and lose to someone with a 250 0x. In IR5050 a 3 card score of 750-0x would beat someone with a 749-74x. Bill always says X’s are accuracy…and IR5050 doesn’t reward that concept. Just my two cents…Todd
I kind of like the "one miss and you lose" aspect of IR5050! It really forces total concentration each shot- one slip and someone else is the better shooter of the card. When not absolutely certain, take a sighter. My shooting has improved a lot since I stopped thinking flyers were the result of bad ammo, but instead looking for something I missed in the wind/mirage, or my technique. I am sure there are cases where a bullet is defective but going back and shooting some old lots that I dismissed as inconsistent, they are surprisingly good now that I am a little better shooter and gunsmith.
Stuart
Stuart
Tony K Harper
Moderator
- Joined
- May 5, 2015
- Messages
- 365
- Reaction score
- 209
Guys each of you have made valid points about IR 50/50 scoring.
For many years I have thought the best shooter/rifle/bullet combo should always win. To a degree I still think so.
But there is another side to this that I didn't learn to much later in my shooting career.
I had an old guy (yes even older than me) tell me that many clubs around the country have always liked the IR 50/50 scoring system because it allowed the clubs have different members win matches from time to time.
They felt that if the same guy/girl always wins it would soon get boring and members would drop out.
I don't know that is a valid concern, but it was a point I had never considered.
TKH
For many years I have thought the best shooter/rifle/bullet combo should always win. To a degree I still think so.
But there is another side to this that I didn't learn to much later in my shooting career.
I had an old guy (yes even older than me) tell me that many clubs around the country have always liked the IR 50/50 scoring system because it allowed the clubs have different members win matches from time to time.
They felt that if the same guy/girl always wins it would soon get boring and members would drop out.
I don't know that is a valid concern, but it was a point I had never considered.
TKH
Since we can no longer order test lots of ammo, wait for favorable conditions to test and expect that lot to be available to order, then one bad bullet can put you out of the running in IR 50/50. That's a fact that can't be disputed. Nuff said.
Here's why I disagree with the above.
First off, if what you say is true about the ammo, then that effects everyone. Everyone is in the same boat. The fact that there were only three 1,500's shot at the IR UL Indoor Nationals supports this. Even since the ammo crunch, most of the same guys are at the top of the lists, be it IR or ARA. Hum, not sure why you think ammo is contributing to the decline of IR? Nothing has changed, other than scores seem to be a little lower lately.........lower for everyone.
Secondly, the game is scored the way the game is scored. You must have the score before the X's mean anything. Go look at all the club, state, and regional matches shot last year. Tell me percentage wise, how many 750's did you find? Everyone screams about how unfair it is that one point screwed them out of a match win. Well, if you didn't win, then someone shot better than you did by shooting a higher score. That's how this game is played. And if your search of past matches shows the same thing I see, you can well and truly drop several points at some matches and still win. To validate this, 2023 IR 3-gun Outdoor Nationals. Winner of the Grand agg..........1493. Dropped 7 points at a National and won! So much for "one bad bullet can put you out of the running". People really need to get over feeling how 'unfair' IR scoring is. They pick out rare specific times when a point cost someone a win, or someone had more X's with a lower score and lost. Nobody ever say's that guy should have shot better to win........oh no!! They just blame it on the scoring. JMO and JME
Scott
Jerry Halcomb
Administrator
- Joined
- May 2, 2015
- Messages
- 307
- Reaction score
- 27
They pick out rare specific times when a point cost someone a win, or someone had more X's with a lower score and lost. Nobody ever say's that guy should have shot better to win........oh no!! They just blame it on the scoring.
Perfect point. There may be reasons that some don’t shoot IR but the bad bullet shouldn’t be one.
Jerry
Perfect point. There may be reasons that some don’t shoot IR but the bad bullet shouldn’t be one.
Jerry
Everything you say here is common knowledge, but we are not in the same boat as you say. If you think the top shooters that win most of the time are shooting untested ammo bought in the blind like we do then I have a bridge for sale . You may be interested.
Read the thread above this one. Very informative.
Last edited:
I never said the top shooters were shooting untested ammo, nor did I imply that. So, you need to find another buyer for your bridge. Even when buying blind, you test the ammo before you compete with it. If it doesn't shoot, you sell it and move on. I never shot one registered card last year, either IR or ARA with untested ammo. I am certain the top guys did the same as well, no matter how they came across the ammo. I did buy a case of Midas+ blind late winter of 2023 and it would not shoot for me. I had no problems selling it. The rest of the ammo I have and shot in competition was all tested by me before a quantity purchase and I feel I had a decent season in 2023 with it. So, I guess our boats are different.Everything you say here is common knowledge, but we are not in the same boat as you say. If you think the top shooters that win most of the time are shooting untested ammo bought in the blind like we do then I have a bridge for sale . You may be interested.
Scott
Obviously. I can't find Midas plus in stock to order even a box. I have seen Midas plus for sale on these sites. It's usually 9 bricks which tells me they bought a case that didn't shoot for them. Where can anyone find a quanity of ammo to test different lots, pick one and order enough to keep you shooting for awhile? If ammo doesn't make a difference you should check a post by Jerry Stiller on one of the other sites. People have sent their rifles back to him claiming they wouldn't shoot. He used a known good lot of ammo and the rifle performed to expectations. Sounds like you are changing your tune somewhat in your last post, and If you think we are all in the same boat then the bridge is still for sale.
Last edited: