Question for Pedro
- Thread starter Old-Trev
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Hi Trevor. I'm not Pedro and I'm sure he knows a lot more than me. I have been anxiously awaiting his reply also. What I have learned, on the range I shoot on, is to zero the scope and hold off for the condition. Reason being is,that due to the range layout, we have conditions that change in the time it takes to reload and fire the next shot. Our range has berms on three sides and a cover over the shooting benches that create a swirling wind condition creating a different hold off constantly. However, If you had a steady wind condition I think you could zero your scope for that condition and hold on the dot. Especially if the wind is very brisk. That's how I have to do it, but I'm sure Pedro can give us a more tried and proven method to handling the wind. Whenever I think that I have found the keys to the castle someone changes the lock. Take care and good shooting. Les on the Mississippi Gulf Coast.
Shooting in the wind...
I think it's one of those questions that will end with more answers than shooters.
I'll try my best to answer my thoughts on that, my early mistakes, and what I do for same time now.
Wind do drift a bullet, more or less depending on wind speed, direction and pattern. I will not address aspects like bullet velocity, barrel length and grooves. I'm not addressing those not because they will not impact drift, but because they are bullet and barrel constant variables. Wind, is the opposite, is a living variable!
Trevor question is a simple one, because he's just asking if I "click" the scope or if I hold off...
I started, in my early days, clicking, but quickly I understood that was a mistake. Since I realize the mistake, I never clicked again for the sake of wind correction/drift.
I zeroed in my scope and then hold off. And I hold of what's needed... yes, sometimes a lot is needed. I just returned from Euro and World Cup in Oulu, Finland, and the wind was like Katrina...
I hold off, a lot of shots, out of the target... yes, for our WRABF targets, that means out of the 5 score ring.
Why I don't click? Because I will miss, and will miss wild. If you click you loose your scope zero reference, and you introduce another variable to be taken in account. Clicking does a compensation for one wind type, and then, you have to think where another wind type will drift minus or plus the clicking amount. Nah... too much thinking and very prone to error. If you just hold off, you just have one variable to be taken in account, more or less, depending of wind type.
Can give you an exemple showing the misleading of clicking the scope...
Imagine a strong red wind (left to right), and you click to compensate to aim on the center. This will make your barrel pointing to the left when you are dead center (and a little high). Now the wind decrease its speed and to hit the center you'll have to aim to the right of the center, just the opposite what should be done with a red wind. See? It's counter intuitive, and in the heat of the competition you'll forget and will miss wild. And another issue, if you forgotten you clicked, you'll just scratch your head trying to understand why the bullet impacted so wrongly...
So, my answer is, I do hold off.
I think it's one of those questions that will end with more answers than shooters.
I'll try my best to answer my thoughts on that, my early mistakes, and what I do for same time now.
Wind do drift a bullet, more or less depending on wind speed, direction and pattern. I will not address aspects like bullet velocity, barrel length and grooves. I'm not addressing those not because they will not impact drift, but because they are bullet and barrel constant variables. Wind, is the opposite, is a living variable!
Trevor question is a simple one, because he's just asking if I "click" the scope or if I hold off...
I started, in my early days, clicking, but quickly I understood that was a mistake. Since I realize the mistake, I never clicked again for the sake of wind correction/drift.
I zeroed in my scope and then hold off. And I hold of what's needed... yes, sometimes a lot is needed. I just returned from Euro and World Cup in Oulu, Finland, and the wind was like Katrina...
I hold off, a lot of shots, out of the target... yes, for our WRABF targets, that means out of the 5 score ring.
Why I don't click? Because I will miss, and will miss wild. If you click you loose your scope zero reference, and you introduce another variable to be taken in account. Clicking does a compensation for one wind type, and then, you have to think where another wind type will drift minus or plus the clicking amount. Nah... too much thinking and very prone to error. If you just hold off, you just have one variable to be taken in account, more or less, depending of wind type.
Can give you an exemple showing the misleading of clicking the scope...
Imagine a strong red wind (left to right), and you click to compensate to aim on the center. This will make your barrel pointing to the left when you are dead center (and a little high). Now the wind decrease its speed and to hit the center you'll have to aim to the right of the center, just the opposite what should be done with a red wind. See? It's counter intuitive, and in the heat of the competition you'll forget and will miss wild. And another issue, if you forgotten you clicked, you'll just scratch your head trying to understand why the bullet impacted so wrongly...
So, my answer is, I do hold off.
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Hi Les (Penn63) and Pedro,
Thanks for your replies. What you have both said is basically what I do. My scope is zeroed to as close as zero wind on our range. I have never seen a flag tail hanging limp, always a slight flutter. Some of us hold debates about this subject, and sometimes some unusual ideas come up. Most of us hold off, but there are differences in how game we are as to how far we are prepared to hold off.
I asked this question to find out how a better and more experienced shooter handled the wind. Thanks very much Pedro for your reply. It is much appreciated.
Cheers to you both from sunny Nth. Queensland Australia.
Trevor.
right said fred
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G'day Trev, i pick a condition before hand and shoot sighters for that condition holding on the centre. I shoot target rifle australia matches where once you start your business shots you are not allowed to return to the sighter. I shoot head up ,meaning i am not looking through the scope when i pull the trigger but i am watching the flags. Pics of my last 90 metre shoot 60 scoring shots+ sighters.
Scott in Australia.
Scott in Australia.Hi Scott (right said fred),
Thanks for your input. When we have very fast wind changes on our range I to shoot heads up watching flags. At times still get caught,as some of our changes are so quick it can change at the point of trigger release, and a point or 3 down.
Cheers,
Trevor.
(P.S.)
Good to see another Aussie on this forum.
right said fred
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G 'day,i am also a Queenslander, Bundaberg so the wind never stops blowing. It is what it is so we just make the best of it on the day. On a side note these cards were shot with a 40 year old rifle which i only use for 90 metres. I have another for 20 metres and 50 metres. When i got this rifle i did post in the Rimfire Benchrest Forum/ now on page 5 . ( Diana820S ) .Scott in Australia.
.
.Shooting head up or through the scope?
Both has pros and cons...
I do shoot through the scope, but developed (not hard) a two eye vision.
Two eye vision is the ability to change eye image from left to right as you want. I have developed this technique because I do dynamic aiming, instead of static one.
If you shoot heads up, you pick a aiming point and wait for the condition to develop so you can shoot and hope to hit the 10/x. However, wind is already dynamic and seldom shows the very same condition. I've tried a lot heads up, and my experience showed that I do less Xs versus through the scope.
I use a joystick front rest, so I can live adjust my aiming point as the wind does small changes. But I don't chase the wind, I wait for my condition. However, as I can see the flags (left eye) and the target (right eye) I can make small aiming adjusts to hit that X.
This technique needs good eye sight, ability to see them independently and some training, because it tires the eyes.
That's why some shooting mates are puzzled looking me shooting... they ask how can I shot in the wind if I just look through the scope?
I do see the flags, majority of the time I must say, but as I have my scope eye there, I can immediately see if my aiming point reflects the needed hold off.
To me, the most important point of my technique, is not loosing time, and condition, going up and down to be certain where's the aiming point.
Both has pros and cons...
I do shoot through the scope, but developed (not hard) a two eye vision.
Two eye vision is the ability to change eye image from left to right as you want. I have developed this technique because I do dynamic aiming, instead of static one.
If you shoot heads up, you pick a aiming point and wait for the condition to develop so you can shoot and hope to hit the 10/x. However, wind is already dynamic and seldom shows the very same condition. I've tried a lot heads up, and my experience showed that I do less Xs versus through the scope.
I use a joystick front rest, so I can live adjust my aiming point as the wind does small changes. But I don't chase the wind, I wait for my condition. However, as I can see the flags (left eye) and the target (right eye) I can make small aiming adjusts to hit that X.
This technique needs good eye sight, ability to see them independently and some training, because it tires the eyes.
That's why some shooting mates are puzzled looking me shooting... they ask how can I shot in the wind if I just look through the scope?
I do see the flags, majority of the time I must say, but as I have my scope eye there, I can immediately see if my aiming point reflects the needed hold off.
To me, the most important point of my technique, is not loosing time, and condition, going up and down to be certain where's the aiming point.
right said fred
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G' day PedroS,i have read a lot of your writings on shooting and have tried a lot of stuff. I used to use the two eye method but age and eyes have caught up a little bit. 81 years young and sometimes have seniors moments but i loooove to shoot. Looking through a scope for a minute plus is very taxing as you stated. I did have a joystick but now have a mechanical one, bit slower but suits my style and i do not go over time. Thanks to you and trevor for your posts.Old Scott.Whoops.Scott in Australia
Hi Pedro and Scott,G' day PedroS,i have read a lot of your writings on shooting and have tried a lot of stuff. I used to use the two eye method but age and eyes have caught up a little bit. 81 years young and sometimes have seniors moments but i loooove to shoot. Looking through a scope for a minute plus is very taxing as you stated. I did have a joystick but now have a mechanical one, bit slower but suits my style and i do not go over time. Thanks to you and trevor for your posts.Old Scott.Whoops.Scott in Australia
I Shoot both ways depending on conditions. If reasonable I shoot through scope, but when we have our quick change conditions I shoot heads up. I do so because I cannot see the right hand flags because of scope and have been caught by the sudden change from right to left wind. I did have a mechanical rest but a bit over a year ago I changed to a Seb Neo X. The previous one was a Sinclair "F" Class rest as I also shoot big bore "F" Class.
For Scott,
I shoot the 3 S.S.A.A. bench rest matches and found the mechanical rest a bit slow to go back to the sighter, especially when shooting the top row. The old 40X was is a good rifle. Ihad a Hall but sold it off and am now shooting a Vudoo S/S. Ipip you a bit in age as I turned 86 last month and I guess like you we show the young fellows what it is all about.
Cheers,
Trevor.
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Scott kiddle
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Perdo only out to the 5 ring ? I was at some points out on the edge of the box on the next diagram
And even further when shooting air
But 100% agree with not clicking on for the wind , I might click up or down for elevation but never left or right