Season is fading off...

Last weekend on a German Match
What do the community think
Change tuners setting?

The most common question... should I retune my rifle?

First things first.
On 1st image, target 8, the upper shot is not a 10... it's a 9. So your analysis is not fully accurate.

Looking at your targets, majority of groups are not vertical. Yes, you have a couple of verticals, but also many horizontal ones.
At he end, when you emulate all shots, the group is more or less roundish... I think you'll be better to continue looking for a better lot.

Shooting at Hammilken is hard. You'll have lots of front and back winds, and if you are shooting at the latest benches, the range is must more open than the other positions. Could be the source of a lot of verticals.
 
Thank a Lot the scoring is like the comity score
Wind was not so easy ……I’ll try two or mor Millimeters forward
Its a Walther kk500 with standard tube🤷‍♂️
 
Hello Pedro,

Thank you for clearly clarifying the difference between instinct and intuition.
So work well with the wind and let intuition do its work!T

here is one thing I would like to understand about tuning the tuners.

I often found several adjustment zones, for example 1 ¼ turn and 3 1/2 turns, sometimes more locations.
I can fine-tune several zones, so how do I choose the best zone?

Always complicated the rimfire! glad you reacted
 
Yes, there are some sweet spots, but they are not really the same.
In fact, any of those sweet spots can, in fact, produce scores like 250s, but normally they differ in the number of Xs.
Some will be more "forgiving" in the wind, others not so much.

Rimfire is funny, indeed.
I seldom have more than two very good sweet spots. If I remember well, on one of my rifles, it took me almost one year shooting, to determine the best one.
Other interesting fact about the "best" of these spots, is the rifle ability to find good lots.

It takes time, discipline, motivation, knowledge, and, not less important, money.
 
Thanks Pedro,

I'm going to look for what passes best in the wind!

Still so much to learn, glad to be able to draw on your great experience.
 
Yes, there are some sweet spots, but they are not really the same.
In fact, any of those sweet spots can, in fact, produce scores like 250s, but normally they differ in the number of Xs.
Some will be more "forgiving" in the wind, others not so much.

Rimfire is funny, indeed.
I seldom have more than two very good sweet spots. If I remember well, on one of my rifles, it took me almost one year shooting, to determine the best one.
Other interesting fact about the "best" of these spots, is the rifle ability to find good lots.

It takes time, discipline, motivation, knowledge, and, not less important, money.
Howdy Pedro,

You are posting so much good info!

You said something I've never considered before:

"Other interesting fact about the "best" of these spots, is the rifle ability to find good lots."

Can you explain this a bit more, please?

Take care,

Greg
 
"Other interesting fact about the "best" of these spots, is the rifle ability to find good lots."

Can you explain this a bit more, please?

Hi Greg,

I don't have a specific answer for that, but I'l share my thoughts on it.

I draw that conclusion after some time at test centres. I noticed that some of my rifles could/can pick more easily a lot around 12mm 30 shots group. Some times, I have to choose between 2/3 lots...
Others, on the contrary, are hard to find a suitable lot. Some times I couldn't even find a lot under 14mm 30 shots group.
At the beginning I thought it was rifle specific, but after some time, and because I take notes of everything putting results on an excel sheet, I started to notice a trend. The best rifles always have one or a couple of lots on around 12mm. Well, it's because they are the best ones. No doubt of it.

But, some times, things happens just by change... one, on those testings, my best rifle couldn't find any suitable lot... hmm, what's wrong here? Funny, I was testing with another sweet spot and forget to reposition the tuner to the "best" one for testing. I was lucky having time at hand, and we retest the rifle with the correct sweet spot. And? You got it, immediately was apparent, with every lot, a smaller group appears on target, and, as expected, two lots were 12mm 30 shots group.
This happened 3 years ago at Lapua Germany test centre.

I couldn't stop thinking about it during the travel back home. But, it was still, a negative thought... uau, if I didn't notice I couldn't end up with a good choice.
Arriving at home I immediately put a testing plan with all my available ammo lots.
At the range, through several weeks, I tested all lots with different sweet spots, and this corroborated the initial thought. The best sweet spot is easier on finding good lots.

Again, it changed also my tuning approach. Before I tend to rely just on a sweet spot, but now I play around all sweet spots, until I discover the best one. Only then, I finish my tuning, and keep that tuning until a major rifle component is changed.

P.S.:
Why should we bother if a spot gives 250 20x and the other 250 21x?
Well, keep trying and if the second is frequently the best, stay with it.
The time spent will pay dividends at the end. Both, in points and most importantly, in ammo finding.
 
Pedro
I just have to say this, I shot long range Benchrest for years 600 and 1000.

You hit it talking about routine and comfort zones, are 2 DIFFERENT thing’s entirely.

Stick to your routine and it takes practice practice sometimes years to perfect, NEVER get in a comfort zone you’ll mess up every time.

Sorry just had to say that
Carry on

Joey
 
Hi Greg,

I don't have a specific answer for that, but I'l share my thoughts on it.

I draw that conclusion after some time at test centres. I noticed that some of my rifles could/can pick more easily a lot around 12mm 30 shots group. Some times, I have to choose between 2/3 lots...
Others, on the contrary, are hard to find a suitable lot. Some times I couldn't even find a lot under 14mm 30 shots group.
At the beginning I thought it was rifle specific, but after some time, and because I take notes of everything putting results on an excel sheet, I started to notice a trend. The best rifles always have one or a couple of lots on around 12mm. Well, it's because they are the best ones. No doubt of it.

But, some times, things happens just by change... one, on those testings, my best rifle couldn't find any suitable lot... hmm, what's wrong here? Funny, I was testing with another sweet spot and forget to reposition the tuner to the "best" one for testing. I was lucky having time at hand, and we retest the rifle with the correct sweet spot. And? You got it, immediately was apparent, with every lot, a smaller group appears on target, and, as expected, two lots were 12mm 30 shots group.
This happened 3 years ago at Lapua Germany test centre.

I couldn't stop thinking about it during the travel back home. But, it was still, a negative thought... uau, if I didn't notice I couldn't end up with a good choice.
Arriving at home I immediately put a testing plan with all my available ammo lots.
At the range, through several weeks, I tested all lots with different sweet spots, and this corroborated the initial thought. The best sweet spot is easier on finding good lots.

Again, it changed also my tuning approach. Before I tend to rely just on a sweet spot, but now I play around all sweet spots, until I discover the best one. Only then, I finish my tuning, and keep that tuning until a major rifle component is changed.

P.S.:
Why should we bother if a spot gives 250 20x and the other 250 21x?
Well, keep trying and if the second is frequently the best, stay with it.
The time spent will pay dividends at the end. Both, in points and most importantly, in ammo finding.
Howdy Pedro,

There is a lot to consider in your post. Thank you for taking the time to pass on good information to others!

Take care,

Greg
 
Pedro
A question I can't explain:
I pull on the pendulums when they come to a vertical standstill while the weather vanes (which I don't watch) spin like crazy. I can hear them but I'm fixed on the point of stability of my 3 pendulums.
I can't explain why this works when the pendulums are moving on a single plane.
 
Pedro
A question I can't explain:
I pull on the pendulums when they come to a vertical standstill while the weather vanes (which I don't watch) spin like crazy. I can hear them but I'm fixed on the point of stability of my 3 pendulums.
I can't explain why this works when the pendulums are moving on a single plane.
I do this a lot, I call it shooting the probes instead of the flags. When it's working you can hold straight low at 6'oclock.
 
Pedro
A question I can't explain:
I pull on the pendulums when they come to a vertical standstill while the weather vanes (which I don't watch) spin like crazy. I can hear them but I'm fixed on the point of stability of my 3 pendulums.
I can't explain why this works when the pendulums are moving on a single plane.

Like John said, it's shooting the probes.
I'm not a fan of them... tried but never get used or comfortable at. So for me, just flags.

Reading your post, I understand you shoot when all probes are vertical.
What that means? A moment when they don't react, either because a turbulent condition is swirling, or a drop in wind speed, perpendicular to the shooter, thought. Probes can only show correctly perfect left or right wind at 90º to the shooter. Everything else, between 90º and ~45º is approximate.
We know that 90º wind is the most drifting one, so when probes are up, the most disturbing wind condition is gone, (even for just a moment).
Shooting at that very same moment is an acceptable risk taking.
Why risky, and why acceptable?
Risky, because probe don't show nothing than 90-45º winds. So, everything else is shooting blind...
Acceptable, because they show the most disturbance wind, drifting wise.

Shooting is always a series of compromises. Rather shoot with good understanding with probes, than being lost with flags.
 
I shoot the probe not because I want to but when I have to, when things are all mixed up and the flags are a mess.
 
Preparing correctly the bench is the 1st routine you should endeavour and learn by heart. It has to be automatic. Perfect and repeatable every time.
That's a thing you can practice at home.

When you decide to seat, you agreed to yourself that the bench is ok. This action should tell your brain: "Next step"

Now you focus totally on preparing the barrel for the target. It should be fouled and brought to the shooting temp. I found that a good tuned rifle has a big shooting temp window, but, like choosing ammo, you have to learn yours.
I control my barrel temp using the back of my left index finger. It's a very sensitive zone and you'll be surprised how accurate it can be with a little practice.
Touching the barrel, with that finger zone, just ahead of the action, is a must to check proper shooting temp. A word of caution here. Rimfire is not centerfire, where you'll burn your finger after a couple of shots. Rimfire runs much colder then. Too warm (note I'm not saying too hot) is worst than too cold. Don't ask how I know...
Practice with a cold, and after 10 shots barrel. Learn that difference and you'll be ok. Even in very cold weather a difference is notorious.
My rifles, after prepared to start the target, can wait until 4min, not shooting, having confidence that the next shot will land where I want. This is a must in competition. But fear nothing, if your rifle, let's say, can only wait two min, every two min shot on a sighter and you are on the right window temp.

That said, let's return to our 1st shot...

I told you, that on the bench, I lay 5 warming bullets and 2 boxes of competition ammo. Very seldom I brought o the bench more than one shooting ammo lot. That's because, in the heat of the match a mistake is an easy thing to happen, be aware. In the case of having two different lots, they are separated by my tiny screwdriver, being closer to me to usual lot, and farther away the 2nd option.
Funny enough, none have asked why I do need a tiny screwdriver on the bench...

You heard the starting signal and the 20 min countdown is on its way. Those 5 warming shots are done quick, very quick, but in control. They are not shot into the target, they are just to foul and to warm the barrel. Why shooting them quick? Because the clock is ticking...

After those shoots take a barrel temp measure and proceed to the bottom right sighter (at least me), and start shooting the comp ammo.

Now you are doing three things:
  1. finalising barrel preparation
  2. feeling the drift
  3. regaining the right rhythm
At this stage I normally use 3-5 bullets and my last 2 went in the same hole. Now I move to the bottom left sighter and do scoring shots (still on SIGHTER). This is to:
  1. focus on wind drift
  2. double check the barrel readiness
  3. raise confidence levels
Again I normally shot 3-5 shots here. Check barrel temp and I wen to score. Confidence levels at the top, barrel fully prepared, learned where to aim for the chosen condition and shoot. Nothing gives you a better feeling than an X. If you shot a 10, calm down, look at the wind, feel barrel temp. All ok? Next bull. If not, go to the sighter.

Couple of warnings here.
There are a lot of "9 starters", meaning 10, 10, 10 at the sighter, then 9 on score. You'll need much more practice.
Also, remind yourself that sighters don't count, so don't "waist" good condition on sighters.
You should not be a machine gun, your barrel will increase its temp to a danger (bad scoring) level.

Normally, I take 2-3 min on this process, usually starting my scoring at 18-17 min left. I have tried all, fewer shots, more shots, higher cadence, slower shooting... found this sequence the best for me, and my rifles.

Next: Rhythm in the wind
Pedro, can you comment on barrel temp you mention in your routine? How do you measure barrel temp while warming up? What range of temp or limits of temp cause you to slow down, to reduce temperatures?

Thanks very much!

Larry
 
Larry, this is a very difficult question to answer, because I don't use any specific thermometer on my barrel. Well, I tried those temps strips, but they didn't gave any good measurements, at least to me.
So, I use my index finger dorso. As I said, it's a very sensitive zone.
As metal is a great temp transferring material, when you touch a cold barrel (immediately in front of the action), you feel cold. Only when you don't feel any difference from your finger temp, I consider the barrel ready. Then, when I feel the barrel warm, not hot, I stop firing.
That's pretty much my barrel temp window. And interesting enough, your finger temp adapts to weather conditions, which works well from cold to hot weather.

I don't know how to explain it better...
 
Larry, this is a very difficult question to answer, because I don't use any specific thermometer on my barrel. Well, I tried those temps strips, but they didn't gave any good measurements, at least to me.
So, I use my index finger dorso. As I said, it's a very sensitive zone.
As metal is a great temp transferring material, when you touch a cold barrel (immediately in front of the action), you feel cold. Only when you don't feel any difference from your finger temp, I consider the barrel ready. Then, when I feel the barrel warm, not hot, I stop firing.
That's pretty much my barrel temp window. And interesting enough, your finger temp adapts to weather conditions, which works well from cold to hot weather.

I don't know how to explain it better...
Pedro, thanks for the information. I had thought about getting one of the IR temperature handheld devices which read surface temperature of whatever you point it at. I also thought about the temp strips but you are correct, they are not accurate enough.

I'll use your finger method. I have an indoor Tournament tomorrow with Paul T in Wisconsin, so perfect time (and temp) to try your technique out.

Thanks again!

Larry
 
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