Ignition: Custom SAP VS Remington 37

404tbang

Member
Howdy,

Can a Remington 37 have its ignition blueprinted well enough to outperform custom SAP actions?

CNC machining and heat treating before machining the action has its place, but, does it make a custom SAP action shoot better than a 37 with well blueprinted ignition? (I realize CNC is not perfect.) I also realize the 37 was heat treated after machining, and that working on it would be more difficult due to warpage.

I guess what I'm asking is, can a custom SAP action outshoot a 37 with well blueprinted ignition simply because it has better tolerances due to heat treating happening before machining?

Just something I've been pondering while looking forward, hopefully, to more info on a RFBR pistol like Bill's one day.

Take care,

Greg

PS. I've noticed for awhile now that when I try to post off of a cell phone that the typing shows up in white on a white screen, making it difficult to see what I'm actually typing, if anyone knows a fix for this, please let me know.
 
Last edited:
Oh no..........

Howdy,

Can a Remington 37 have its ignition blueprinted well enough to outperform custom SAP actions?

CNC machining and heat treating before machining the action has its place, but, does it make a custom SAP action shoot better than a 37 with well blueprinted ignition? (I realize CNC is not perfect.) I also realize the 37 was heat treated after machining, and that working on it would be more difficult due to warpage.

I guess what I'm asking is, can a custom SAP action outshoot a 37 with well blueprinted ignition simply because it has better tolerances due to heat treating happening before machining?


Just something I've been pondering while looking forward, hopefully, to more info on a RFBR pistol like Bill's one day.

Take care,

Greg

PS. I've noticed for awhile now that when I try to post off of a cell phone that the typing shows up in white on a white screen, making it difficult to see what I'm actually typing, if anyone knows a fix for this, please let me know.



______________________________


Oh no..........



P1000190 - Copy (5) - Copy.jpg
 
Friend 404tbang

Ha!

Well, curiosity kills cats and Gregs.....sorta creates more questions sometimes, too.

Take care,

Greg


______________________________



Friend 404tbang:


The 37 Remington action is unique.......


It's a mid lock-up action, like the 40-X and all of the 40-X clones, and actions like the Stiller Copperhead and Myers...and so the Time Precision, in reality is a mid lock-up action, too...


All of the above actions are also vertical lock-up....so they would be classed mid, vertical lock-up actions.



Not the 37 Remington action........it's unique because it's a mid, horizontal lock-up action.....yes, horizontal mid lock-up..not vertical.




And by the way, the 37 Remington is not case hardened.......like the A, C, D and E 52 Winchesters, and some of the custom RFBR actions.


The 37 action can be drilled and tapped for scope bases using common, high speed tooling......


Therefore.............



The action face is not warped out of square with the barrel threads like most 52 Winchesters and other case hardened actions...



And that isn't all......



Remington was very clever the way they designed the 37 action.....


Even though the action is mid lock-up, they did not have to broach locking lug ways in the action......


This allowed the action to be mid-lock-up without having the need to broach to a blind hole.....which meant they could use a .750" diameter barrel thread....actually .775".........or 25/32nds...


Greg:


If the 37 Remington action had a trigger with the characteristics of the FF or B&A, and was 6 ignition, no existing custom SAP ignition RFBR action could run with it......



(Mr. SAP Nation asked you not to ask me the question, cause SAP Nation wouldn't like the answer.)



It would not run with the Turbo though, because there's no practical way of making it momentum dependent like the Turbo...


In other words, there's no practical way to make the 37 firing pin weight 2 ounces....


Your pistol fool friend, BB
 
One other point....

One other point....


Friend 404tbang:


One other point....



The Remington 37 uses a vertical interface trigger design.....unlike the angled interface Remington pattern triggers used by all custom RFBR actions, SAP or MD-PAS...


So the breech bolt is not cocked upward when the 37 is at battery, like all custom RFBR actions are..


So the 37 does not have to deal with the "relaxing" issue that all custom RFBR actions do.


Therefore...........


Even though the 37 is a mid lock-up action, mid horizontal lock-up, it is not affected by the upward pressure on the breech bolt like all custom mid lock-up action are, like the various 40-X clones and the Copperhead and Myers actions, which are vertical lock-up......


Your pistol fool friend, BC



________________________________


PS:


Greg, would it be worth someone's time to try to build a "serious" RFBR rifle on a 37 action?


The answer is, no.



If I put my mind to it, I seriously believe I could build a full-on 37 Remington that would run with all the custom SAP action guns.....


But....................


It would be almost impossible to make it run with the custom MD-PAS action guns...
 
One other point....


Friend 404tbang:


One other point....



The Remington 37 uses a vertical interface trigger design.....unlike the angled interface Remington pattern triggers used by all custom RFBR actions, SAP or MD-PAS...


So the breech bolt is not cocked upward when the 37 is at battery, like all custom RFBR actions are..


So the 37 does not have to deal with the "relaxing" issue that all custom RFBR actions do.


Therefore...........


Even though the 37 is a mid lock-up action, mid horizontal lock-up, it is not affected by the upward pressure on the breech bolt like all custom mid lock-up action are, like the various 40-X clones and the Copperhead and Myers actions, which are vertical lock-up......


Your pistol fool friend, BC



________________________________


PS:


Greg, would it be worth someone's time to try to build a "serious" RFBR rifle on a 37 action?


The answer is, no.



If I put my mind to it, I seriously believe I could build a full-on 37 Remington that would run with all the custom SAP action guns.....


But....................


It would be almost impossible to make it run with the custom MD-PAS action guns...

Howdy Bill,

Sorry about the delay getting back to you. This pesky work business gets in the way of fun things.

Thanks for all of the info you posted. I love the 37. There's just something about it I can't explain. I've got one with a custom barrel I've never even got to shoot since all the back issues got worse with the re-injury. I bought it before the surgeries and wanted to compare it to my other one. Hopefully going to do that soon if I can get caught up on a bunch of work around the house. I'm thankful to God in Heaven and my surgeon for helping me improve from where I was.

Never quit. Never, ever, ever, EVER quit.

Awhile back I ended up with a project 37 action. You've told me before about the headaches of finding parts, and man alive, were you ever right. I've got some of the necessary spares to keep a 37 going for awhile. But on this project action........it gives me a chance to experiment and learn some things, I hope.

One plus to it, it has some sort of Canjar trigger lever with a set trigger. I've seen something similar from Canjar in the past. I also have Canjar triggers in the other rifles, so I can swap things and tinker in an effort to learn a couple of things.

What I'm really interested in is, hopefully, a pistol like yours coming along the path of development. Until then, I want to tinker with this action. The firing pin being made heavier looks like a bit of a challenge. Only thing I can think of is something similar to what you did on Little Black Knight.

But it seems to me the best path forward is the pistol, with the option of using it as a rifle as well.

But your pistol setup just looks like SO.MUCH.FUN!

Take care,

Greg
 
Friend 404tbang

Howdy Bill,

Sorry about the delay getting back to you. This pesky work business gets in the way of fun things.

Thanks for all of the info you posted. I love the 37. There's just something about it I can't explain. I've got one with a custom barrel I've never even got to shoot since all the back issues got worse with the re-injury. I bought it before the surgeries and wanted to compare it to my other one. Hopefully going to do that soon if I can get caught up on a bunch of work around the house. I'm thankful to God in Heaven and my surgeon for helping me improve from where I was.

Never quit. Never, ever, ever, EVER quit.

Awhile back I ended up with a project 37 action. You've told me before about the headaches of finding parts, and man alive, were you ever right. I've got some of the necessary spares to keep a 37 going for awhile. But on this project action........it gives me a chance to experiment and learn some things, I hope.

One plus to it, it has some sort of Canjar trigger lever with a set trigger. I've seen something similar from Canjar in the past. I also have Canjar triggers in the other rifles, so I can swap things and tinker in an effort to learn a couple of things.

What I'm really interested in is, hopefully, a pistol like yours coming along the path of development. Until then, I want to tinker with this action. The firing pin being made heavier looks like a bit of a challenge. Only thing I can think of is something similar to what you did on Little Black Knight.

But it seems to me the best path forward is the pistol, with the option of using it as a rifle as well.

But your pistol setup just looks like SO.MUCH.FUN!


Take care,

Greg


__________________________________________



Friend 404tbang:


You can take it from me, if you ever get one of these pistols you'll never want to shoot a rifle again....


DSC00105 (2).jpg



Here's a picture of a 37 Remington.......a fascinating action design.....




DSC01790.JPG


Down the road I'll tell you some fascinating things about this action.....


The way Remington designed the locking lug raceways in particular....


See, they didn't need to be able to broach to a blind hole, therefore, they could keep the front of the action raceway free, allowing them to use a small diameter thread pattern, like the 52 Winchester....


By splitting the top of the action for the primary locking lug to pass through, allowed them to end mill the secondary locking lug raceway on the opposite side........very clever.......and cheap to do......


This also give breech bolt body support both in front and back of the locking lugs themselves...


I'll discuss more later.....


Your pistol fool friend, BC


___________________


PS:

Greg, there's a whole lot of Remington 37 in Timo's Diana..........


Diana &  Broughton.jpg


I wouldn't be a bit surprised to find out that Diana copied the Remington 37 pretty closely....


The Diana does have the bolt handle recessed into the stock, whereas the 37 laps the bolt handle over the stock line, which makes the stock stronger without the cut-out for the bolt handle...

And the Diana's slot, primary locking lug raceway, though the rear receiver ring, is rolled over further starboard, so as to make room for scope mounts on the rear receiver ring..


The Diana is "Prettier" with the bolt handle recessed into the stock.....


But.............


The 37 is more functionally sound in the stock, without the cut-out......although cosmetically uglier....
 

__________________________________________



Friend 404tbang:


You can take it from me, if you ever get one of these pistols you'll never want to shoot a rifle again....


View attachment 3646



Here's a picture of a 37 Remington.......a fascinating action design.....




View attachment 3647


Down the road I'll tell you some fascinating things about this action.....


The way Remington designed the locking lug raceways in particular....


See, they didn't need to be able to broach to a blind hole, therefore, they could keep the front of the action raceway free, allowing them to use a small diameter thread pattern, like the 52 Winchester....


By splitting the top of the action for the primary locking lug to pass through, allowed them to end mill the secondary locking lug raceway on the opposite side........very clever.......and cheap to do......


This also give breech bolt body support both in front and back of the locking lugs themselves...


I'll discuss more later.....


Your pistol fool friend, BC


___________________


PS:

Greg, there's a whole lot of Remington 37 in Timo's Diana..........


View attachment 3648


I wouldn't be a bit surprised to find out that Diana copied the Remington 37 pretty closely....


The Diana does have the bolt handle recessed into the stock, whereas the 37 laps the bolt handle over the stock line, which makes the stock stronger without the cut-out for the bolt handle...

And the Diana's slot, primary locking lug raceway, though the rear receiver ring, is rolled over further starboard, so as to make room for scope mounts on the rear receiver ring..


The Diana is "Prettier" with the bolt handle recessed into the stock.....


But.............


The 37 is more functionally sound in the stock, without the cut-out......although cosmetically uglier....


Howdy Bill,

Lots of interesting info in this post, thank you. One of the many things that has always fascinated me about the 37 is something I once read about the strength with which Remington designed it.

No way I can find it now, but I once saw an old Remington ad where they said it was strong enough to safely shoot a 30-06!

No, it's not the prettiest action, but it does seem stout. Seems to me like there are a lot of good qualities Remington built into it. I was going to mention the smaller tenon but you already got there.

Support in front and back of the locking lugs seems interesting, I had not thought about that.

The Diana action looks cool, I've never seen one in the flesh. It was challenging getting the parts for the 37, can't imagine tracking down Diana parts!

Anything else you care to pass along about the 37 would be appreciated!

And every single time you post that pistol picture just makes me want to shoot it more. It HAS to be fun. I'm hoping more info comes out about pistols, but until it does, I'm going to tinker with this project 37 action.

Take care,

Greg
 
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