Results 1 to 8 of 8

Thread: The true measure of rimfire accuracy advancement.

  1. #1

    The true measure of rimfire accuracy advancement.

    The true measure of rimfire accuracy advancement.


    CYA accuracy fool friends:


    The Big National Indoor Events are the true measure of rimfire accuracy advancement.


    Especially the most recent ARA Indoor National because it reflects today, right now, the state of rimfire accuracy advancement, especially the importance of ignition uniformity.



    CYA accuracy fool friends:


    When 41 SAP ignition shooters couldn't produce a single 2500 target, nor win the event, while just 23 MD-PAS ignition shooters produced five, 2500 targets and won the event, clearly shows the superiority of MD-PAS ignition over any form of SAP ignition.


    31 of the 41 SAP ignition shooters used either the Trident or 2500X actions produced by Holeshot Arms.


    Every "serious" owner of these two Holeshot Arms actions wants a MD-PAS ignition version to be made available.....there are no exceptions....


    Every single "serious" owner wants this to happen.......


    Your pistol fool friend, Bill Calfee

  2. #2

    A true, full-on MD-PAS version....

    A true, full-on MD-PAS version....


    CYA accuracy fool friends:


    I quote from my above thread starter:


    "Every "serious" owner of these two Holeshot Arms actions wants a MD-PAS ignition version to be made available.....there are no exceptions...."


    "Every single "serious" owner wants this to happen......."

    _______________________________


    CYA accuracy fool friends:


    The Trident and 2500X MD-PAS version must be a true, full-on MD-PAS version.


    I'm posting this information because it would be extremely difficult to produce a true, full-on MD-PAS version using the existing Trident and 2500X actions.


    Here's a picture of the tang area of a 2500X action.


    Name:  2500X-3 - Copy.jpg
Views: 384
Size:  85.8 KB


    The problem is, the slot in the bottom on the tang, that the cocking piece teat passes through, is wider than the inside width of the trigger.


    Therefore, it would be impossible to produce resistance for cocking in these actions like the Turbo action........


    Which means it would be very difficult, if not impossible, to produce a true, full-on MD-PAS version of the current Trident and 2500X actions, without it being some kind of altered version of the true, full-on MD-PAS ignition Turbo design.



    Your pistol fool friend, BC

  3. #3

    I'm a very curious person......I want to learn...

    I'm a very curious person......I want to learn...




    CYA accuracy fool friends;



    I'm a very curious person......I want to learn...



    Some folks think I act like I know it all about rimfire accuracy......not true.....I know very little, actually...


    But...............


    I am a very curious person......and I want to learn...if I don't learn something new each day I live, it's been a lost day as far as I'm concerned.



    So, I'm curious about something............



    I understand that Holeshot Arms says they've produced some MD-PAS ignition conversions for their Trident and 2500X actions...


    Or PAS ignition conversions......? without the MD part....?


    So I'm curious......


    (By the way, whether Holeshot Arms ever produces a MD-PAS ignition version of their Trident and 2500X actions is neither here nor there to me personally.)


    But.................



    I'd like to see one.........................


    You see.............



    I don't believe it's possible to produce a full-0n, Turbo style, MD-PAS conversion for their Trident and 2500X actions...


    That is, without making a major change to the original Turbo design.....which would be a catastrophic mistake....


    (I use the word catastrophic because, I've been trying to improve the original Turbo ignition system for 23 years, and failed, because it's absolutely "perfect", as is.....)


    It simply can not be improved....



    The bottom line:


    I'd love to see one of the Holeshot Arms PAS conversions for their Trident and 2500X actions.....


    Your pistol fool friend, Bill Calfee


    ______________________________________________


    PS:



    Name:  2500X-3 - Copy.jpg
Views: 312
Size:  85.8 KB


    The current Trident and 2500X actions can not be converted to PAS ignition, without degrading the original Turbo MD-PAS ignition system..

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Calfee View Post

    Name:  2500X-3 - Copy.jpg
Views: 312
Size:  85.8 KB
    I looks like the screw in the rear of the trigger hanger is protruding by about 0.030 or so. On my actions here, the cocking piece will rub on it if it is sticking up like that. Maybe the cocking piece was rubbing that screw and causing inconsistent hits. I had that issue on one of my guns once and it was a disaster. It didn't hit so much it blocked it, but just rubbed on it and caused flyers. That is one thing I always check now when I put my rear action screw or hanger screw in.

    I talked to Mr. Stiller about the PAS actions a while back and he had some information for me. I may try to get back in touch with him and see if he has any information regarding those questions you had. I can post it here if he does and you want me to.

  5. #5

    Friend Geo

    Quote Originally Posted by Geo View Post
    I looks like the screw in the rear of the trigger hanger is protruding by about 0.030 or so. On my actions here, the cocking piece will rub on it if it is sticking up like that. Maybe the cocking piece was rubbing that screw and causing inconsistent hits. I had that issue on one of my guns once and it was a disaster. It didn't hit so much it blocked it, but just rubbed on it and caused flyers. That is one thing I always check now when I put my rear action screw or hanger screw in.

    I talked to Mr. Stiller about the PAS actions a while back and he had some information for me. I may try to get back in touch with him and see if he has any information regarding those questions you had. I can post it here if he does and you want me to.


    ____________________________



    Friend Geo:


    No, the bottom on the cocking piece was not hitting the screw.....



    And yes, if you can get pictures or detailed information about the PAS conversions that Holeshot Arms said they've produced for Trident or 2500X actions, please post them here on CYA...



    Friend Geo, every Trident or 2500X owner who's "serious" about advancing rimfie accuracy is hoping for a MD-PAS ignition option to be made available for their actions.


    Your pistol fool friend, Bill Calfee



    No, the bottom of the cocking piece was not hitting the screw...



    Name:  2500X-3 - Copy.jpg
Views: 260
Size:  85.8 KB

  6. #6
    I contacted Mr Stiller and asked him about the PAS version he had and this is what he responded with:

    George, thanks for asking me about the PAS version of the 2500X. I have 20 sets started years ago and have to complete the remaining firing pin parts on the CNC. My goal was to solve the inherent issues in the PAS system and see if that design could be as good as my current design. I identified 4 major areas of issue. 1. Grease and lubrication between the firing pin and the body that would have volume of grease and temperature variability. 2. Spring overstress due to the small diameter available and load needed. 3. Clocking the firing pin to the bolt without a variability. 4. Firing pin spring stop in the rear not having a well centered and flat surface to sit on causing side load issues in the ID of the firing pin.

    I partially solved #1. The amount of surface area and surface finishes in the current designs was very high. I reduced the area touching, implemented machining techniques to fix the surface finish and melonited all the parts.

    I partially solved #2 by increasing the OD and length of the spring

    I couldn't do anything with #3 as it is just part of the design. I did however use features in my action that probably made it near the level of my current design

    I solved #4 with a change to the design of the spring stop area.

    In doing all of the this I compared the PAS design to what I currently have and could not ever get it to exceed my uniformity. In the end it still has the lubrication and clocking issues so my enthusiasm for finishing the parts was somewhat subdued. I may finish them one day if and when I have time. Keep in mind I am trying to get closer to retirement. I really don't want to go into my design much more with pics etc as my improvements have made my PAS system better than the current ones and I don't think I need to help out my competition fix their problems, if they even realize they have them.

    BTW, I read your post about the action pictured and totally agree. That is a prototype action. It has a different entrance to the slots in the rear that was only on the prototypes. I am guessing it was Tony Harpers or Tim Millers. The trigger hanger lip was 0.030 too thin and I supplied a washer to go under the screw head to stop the protrusion. While it wouldn't stop the cocking piece, it would still partially rub when the bolt relaxed and the pin fell. It also had the dual firing pins, one for ignition and one for a guide. There were a few issues with binding and I corrected them. The production units use only the 6 o'clock position and the way the cocking piece, firing pin, shroud and bolt body all assemble the alignment is handled there. The side pin in the shroud is the key to that design as well as the shroud being set screwed to the bolt front.

    Thank you for your inquiry.

  7. #7

    Friend Geo

    Quote Originally Posted by Geo View Post
    I contacted Mr Stiller and asked him about the PAS version he had and this is what he responded with:

    George, thanks for asking me about the PAS version of the 2500X. I have 20 sets started years ago and have to complete the remaining firing pin parts on the CNC. My goal was to solve the inherent issues in the PAS system and see if that design could be as good as my current design. I identified 4 major areas of issue. 1. Grease and lubrication between the firing pin and the body that would have volume of grease and temperature variability. 2. Spring overstress due to the small diameter available and load needed. 3. Clocking the firing pin to the bolt without a variability. 4. Firing pin spring stop in the rear not having a well centered and flat surface to sit on causing side load issues in the ID of the firing pin.

    I partially solved #1. The amount of surface area and surface finishes in the current designs was very high. I reduced the area touching, implemented machining techniques to fix the surface finish and melonited all the parts.

    I partially solved #2 by increasing the OD and length of the spring

    I couldn't do anything with #3 as it is just part of the design. I did however use features in my action that probably made it near the level of my current design

    I solved #4 with a change to the design of the spring stop area.

    In doing all of the this I compared the PAS design to what I currently have and could not ever get it to exceed my uniformity. In the end it still has the lubrication and clocking issues so my enthusiasm for finishing the parts was somewhat subdued. I may finish them one day if and when I have time. Keep in mind I am trying to get closer to retirement. I really don't want to go into my design much more with pics etc as my improvements have made my PAS system better than the current ones and I don't think I need to help out my competition fix their problems, if they even realize they have them.

    BTW, I read your post about the action pictured and totally agree. That is a prototype action. It has a different entrance to the slots in the rear that was only on the prototypes. I am guessing it was Tony Harpers or Tim Millers. The trigger hanger lip was 0.030 too thin and I supplied a washer to go under the screw head to stop the protrusion. While it wouldn't stop the cocking piece, it would still partially rub when the bolt relaxed and the pin fell. It also had the dual firing pins, one for ignition and one for a guide. There were a few issues with binding and I corrected them. The production units use only the 6 o'clock position and the way the cocking piece, firing pin, shroud and bolt body all assemble the alignment is handled there. The side pin in the shroud is the key to that design as well as the shroud being set screwed to the bolt front.

    Thank you for your inquiry.

    _________________________



    Friend Geo:


    First of all, thank Mr. Stiller for responding.....




    For Mr. stiller to produce a MD-PAS version of his Trident and 2500X actions, will require him to redesign the tang area to allow for resistance for cocking......the current Trident and 2500X actions can not be converted to MD-PAS, that is, without altering the original Turbo design, which would be a catastrophic mistake...

    (The original Turbo MD-PAS design is so perfect that it has not been improved in the 23 years since its introduction.)


    Lastly......



    We will never see a MD-PAS ignition Trident or 2500X, because if they were ever produced, Holeshot Arms would never sell another SAP ignition version.


    I know this, Holeshot Arms knows this, and the entire world of rimfire accuracy knows this...



    Again, please thank Mr. Stiller for responding.


    Your pistol fool friend, Bill Calfee,

  8. #8

    It's not going to blow over.....

    It's not going to blow over.....


    To the owners of Trident and 2500X actions:


    You Trident and 2500X owners, who are "serious" about rimfire accuracy advancement, want a MD-PAS option....


    The problem is, you find yourself in a funny situation......


    If Holeshot Arms produces the MD-PAS ignition option that you folks desire, they will never sell another SAP ignition version, and they can't have that.


    Name:  P1000189 - Copy.jpg
Views: 144
Size:  83.4 KB


    I feel for you "serious" Trident and 2500X owners......I really do...


    Your pistol fool friend, Bill Calfee

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •