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Thread: Must bicycle invent again?...About 22 LR bullet thickness.

  1. #1

    Must bicycle invent again?...About 22 LR bullet thickness.

    My 62 years old Valmet has always liked Lapua lots where bullet thickness are near 0.223".Doesnt matter is it XAct,Midas+ or Center X.
    Somebody maybe think that what 62 years old rf means among nowadays "killers".
    I have shooted with it on outside range to 53 m (58 yd) few I.R.50/50 cards 250/20+X and because its weight goes very much over HV class limit ,I have shooted only 1 inside range nationals competition with it (weight was not limited in this one).Shooted second amongst "killers" and I know I did
    X losts on my bench technique, not my old "war horse" did those.
    And my main intrest is on "searching the ultimate 22 LR ammo", not on competitions...

    Old days we have Master M (about 0.223) and Master L (about 0.224).Some rf:s liked daughters and others liked mothers.

    Why I now write about this? I read intresting discussion where very serious air rifle developer "Thomas Rifle" tells his studies with 22 cal Shilen & Muller barrels used in air rifle.

    http://benchrest.com/showthread.php?...omas-HPX/page3

    He has made his own 22 cal slugs and wrote:

    "I think the larger SD is due to the muller having more taper and more overall friction. I can make my slugs from .222-.224”...and have tried them all. Any smaller than .2225 and accuracy deteriorates...and anything over .2230 with throw fliers".

    There are lot of other things in ammo what makes "killer lot" or not to each barrel,but bullet thickness is one.

    We have so many different barrel inside diameters,little higher & lower lands, different width on lands & grooves etc.and from those depends how much longer bullet change in barrel and also there comes different waxing issues.

    Why not 22 LR ammo makers cant invent bicycle again and offer to us L & M bullets thicknesses like on old days?

    Easier than lapping some barrel 0,001" larger-.

    But to end thousand dollar question with I must scratc my head....Why my rf likes only 0.223" bullets of Lapua but when I change to RWS it likes so thick bullets like 0.2248" ???

    BR, Timo

    Ps. And I am VERY jealous to Mr Thomas.He has only 6 feet/s or even lower Vo speed variation with 22 cal air rifle.We have lot of work with 22 LR ammo to reach this one....
    Last edited by Timo; 1 Week Ago at 02:45 AM.

  2. #2

    Friend gun fool Timo

    Quote Originally Posted by Timo View Post
    My 62 years old Valmet has always liked Lapua lots where bullet thickness are near 0.223".Doesnt matter is it XAct,Midas+ or Center X.
    Somebody maybe think that what 62 years old rf means among nowadays "killers".
    I have shooted with it on outside range to 53 m (58 yd) few I.R.50/50 cards 250/20+X and because its weight goes very much over HV class limit ,I have shooted only 1 inside range nationals competition with it (weight was not limited in this one).Shooted second amongst "killers" and I know I did
    X losts on my bench technique, not my old "war horse" did those.
    And my main intrest is on "searching the ultimate 22 LR ammo", not on competitions...

    Old days we have Master M (about 0.223) and Master L (about 0.224).Some rf:s liked daughters and others liked mothers.

    Why I now write about this? I read intresting discussion where very serious air rifle developer "Thomas Rifle" tells his studies with 22 cal Shilen & Muller barrels used in air rifle.

    http://benchrest.com/showthread.php?...omas-HPX/page3

    He has made his own 22 cal slugs and wrote:

    "I think the larger SD is due to the muller having more taper and more overall friction. I can make my slugs from .222-.224...and have tried them all. Any smaller than .2225 and accuracy deteriorates...and anything over .2230 with throw fliers".

    There are lot of other things in ammo what makes "killer lot" or not to each barrel,but bullet thickness is one.

    We have so many different barrel inside diameters,little higher & lower lands, different width on lands & grooves etc.and from those depends how much longer bullet change in barrel and also there comes different waxing issues.

    Why not 22 LR ammo makers cant invent bicycle again and offer to us L & M bullets thicknesses like on old days?

    Easier than lapping some barrel 0,001" larger-.

    But to end thousand dollar question with I must scratc my head....Why my rf likes only 0.223" bullets of Lapua but when I change to RWS it likes so thick bullets like 0.2248" ???

    BR, Timo

    Ps. And I am VERY jealous to Mr Thomas.He has only 6 feet/s or even lower Vo speed variation with 22 cal air rifle.We have lot of work with 22 LR ammo to reach this one....

    _______________________________


    Friend gun fool Timo:


    There's a lot of 37 Remington in your 62 year old Valmet...


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    The rear receiver ring is split so the primary locking lug passes through it...


    This allows the locking lug raceways to be machined with an end mill instead of having to be broached.......


    This keeps the actions extremely strong, and allows small diameter barrel threads.......the 37 Remington uses a .775" x 20 pitch...


    The locking lug raceways in the Valmet are rolled starboard more than the 37 Remington's which makes the Valmet prettier, but, the 37 Stock is stronger as there's no cut-out in the stock for the bolt handle...


    And 37 receivers are not case hardened....which means the action face is pretty near "custom" square with the barrel threads.....


    Whereas the 52 Winchester is cased, and most all of them are warped to some degree.....some really bad....


    And of course the 37 is PAS ignition........like I believe you said the Valmet is also....


    Oh, and even though the Valmet and 37 are mid lock-up actions, their breech bolts are supported both in front and back of the locking lugs...


    And since there's no upward pressure on the bottom of the cocking pieces like's on actions that use the Remington pattern trigger, there is no need for the action to "relax" to be able to produce accuracy...



    Your pistol fool friend, BC



  3. #3
    Valmet is not the main thing to discuss,but little about it.Yes,it is PAS with separate plate firing pin and strikes to 9 oclock.Piece what spring moves is solid & round without any imbalance parts or mass.
    Barrels thickness is 1,09" and 28,75" long.6 groove,very narrow lands (exact land/groove % I cant say).

    But the main thing: Bullet thickness & bearing surface lenghts ratio (or relation).

    Hopely my "rally english" is enough to explain my thoughts....

    *22 LR "Lead bullet engineer" make his/her best to make good shaped bullet lets say 0.224" thickness.

    *Then people shoot those from different inside diameter barrels.

    *From tight barrel thick lead bullet come out much longer and "lead bullet engineers" work has been uselessly.Bullet weight balance change.

    *Bit by bit I have equipments to make to 22 LR ammo what ever different fool ideas my "gun fool" head gives.

    *Noticed when I shorten thick bullets bearing surface my Valmet likes those better.

    *Can we find "linear function ratio formula" with bullet thickness & bearing surface lenght to each barrel?

    *0,223 bullets round measure is about 0,701" and 0,224" bullets round measure is 0,705".

    *Comparing to only groove diameter (big caliber) is not enough,because we have different land/groove % and also little different land heights.

    *My friend who just won LV Nationals (This Diana man") here is VERY intrested of my "22 LR ammo fool" studies.I have said to him many times: "Dont come with me to this 22 LR ammo jungle! Mostly waste of time to competition RFBR shooter! You have now enough good rf&ammo combination and just shoot on outside range near every day and especially on bad condition days!

    BR, Timo

    Ps.Sometimes we think that time golden memories,but I have this picture what remains me/us what is the goal...Nice that few old guys has cut/saved those 10 shot groups to 50 meter from batch tests.

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    Last edited by Timo; 6 Days Ago at 03:28 AM.

  4. #4

    Friend gun fool Timo

    Quote Originally Posted by Timo View Post
    Valmet is not the main thing to discuss,but little about it.Yes,it is PAS with separate plate firing pin and strikes to 9 oclock.Piece what spring moves is solid & round without any imbalance parts or mass.
    Barrels thickness is 1,09" and 28,75" long.6 groove,very narrow lands (exact land/groove % I cant say).

    But the main thing: Bullet thickness & bearing surface lenghts ratio (or relation).

    Hopely my "rally english" is enough to explain my thoughts....

    *22 LR "Lead bullet engineer" make his/her best to make good shaped bullet lets say 0.224" thickness.

    *Then people shoot those from different inside diameter barrels.

    *From tight barrel thick lead bullet come out much longer and "lead bullet engineers" work has been uselessly.Bullet weight balance change.

    *Bit by bit I have equipments to make to 22 LR ammo what ever different fool ideas my "gun fool" head gives.

    *Noticed when I shorten thick bullets bearing surface my Valmet likes those better.

    *Can we find "linear function ratio formula" with bullet thickness & bearing surface lenght to each barrel?

    *0,223 bullets round measure is about 0,701" and 0,224" bullets round measure is 0,705".

    *Comparing to only groove diameter (big caliber) is not enough,because we have different land/groove % and also little different land heights.

    *My friend who just won LV Nationals (This Diana man") here is VERY intrested of my "22 LR ammo fool" studies.I have said to him many times: "Dont come with me to this 22 LR ammo jungle! Mostly waste of time to competition RFBR shooter! You have now enough good rf&ammo combination and just shoot on outside range near every day and especially on bad condition days!

    BR, Timo

    Ps.Sometimes we think that time golden memories,but I have this picture what remains me/us what is the goal...Nice that few old guys has cut/saved those 10 shot groups to 50 meter from batch tests.

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Views: 184
Size:  27.5 KB

    ________________________________



    Friend gun fool Timo:



    I highlighted one of your sentences in bold orange.



    This is the reason for the MI Revolution in barrels here in the US.....


    Like the Muller 4-MI and Corrugated 8.......both are extremely minimally invasive to the bullet, so it is not elongated as much as more aggressive rifling patterns....


    I write extensively about this bullet elongation issue in my book......


    Your pistol fool friend, BC


    ________________________


    PS:


    Friend gun fool Timo, since the rules of RFBR do not allow hand loading ammo, I have always concentrated on improving the other aspects of rimfire accuracy......


    Like the MI barrels, for instance......and the art of taper lapping bores, and of proper chambering and chamber finishing....


    And especially this MD-PAS/SAP ignition issue that I discuss so much.....

    Friend Timo, if we had ammo with zero velocity variation, the level of accuracy would be determined by the uniformity of ignition, all else being equal.....



    In other words, I try to fix what the rules allow me to fix......


    bc.......

  5. #5
    Here I think is somebody going to mountain or mountain coming near to somebody...

    I mean change bullet thickness & bearing surface lenght it is faster & easier than change barrel diameter by lapping.

    If allways (or most bullets) thickness is 5,69 mm(0,224") ,lenght ALWAYS same etc. then it is good one to lap barrel inside diameter what best works for those measurements.

    I am not bullet engineer or mathematician and I know among different theories mostly it is best to trust what target tells.

    But here occurs to my mind that can we find mathematical model when we take variables bullet thickness (or round measure),bullets bearing surface and each barrels inside measure (take with exact also grooves & lands to measure)

    My skills are not enough to understand how bullet balance point is changing when lead bullet comes 0,01 " longer from barrel, but what I have seen from targets when changing ammo, I trust now that there is something.

    MAYBE answer to my thousand dollar question:

    "But to end thousand dollar question with I must scratc my head....Why my rf likes only 0.223" bullets of Lapua but when I change to RWS it likes so thick bullets like 0.2248" ???"

    Is this the answer:Thick RWS is about 0,01" shorter than thin Lapua? Thick bullet dont come so long that it lost its balance beacause it is little shorter....

    Now shooted 3 times outside with 3 different Lapua lots what my rf didnt like on "factory model". Made my tricks and all of those accuracy comes better and also wind drifting comes little smaller.(Try to shoot both to same force wind ,looking wind vanes tails angle)

    Competitions ammo rules brakes 22 LR ammo developing. Go and say to our CFBR fiends that you cant anymore load your ammo yourself....

    I know,I know, there are many other issues in 22 LR ammo than this case.....

    Br, Timo from out of box.

  6. #6

    Friend gun fool Timo

    Friend gun fool Timo


    Friend gun fool Timo:


    A quote from your last post:


    "But to end thousand dollar question with I must scratc my head....Why my rf likes only 0.223" bullets of Lapua but when I change to RWS it likes so thick bullets like 0.2248" ???"

    Is this the answer:Thick RWS is about 0,01" shorter than thin Lapua? Thick bullet dont come so long that it lost its balance beacause it is little shorter....



    I would suspect the reason has more to do with the wax/grease, or lead hardness, or resistance for initial combustion from the crimp, than it has to do with the difference in elongation of the two different brands of ammo.



    Your pistol fool friend:


    BC

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