Slugging machine

Timo

Member
Yesterday I got email where was picture and story that one inventor here has made slugging machine to rifle barrels.

Intresting some day compare what this machine tells and what hand slugging tells to same barrel.

But because Mr Calfee & Mr Tolvstad are not giving to us copy of their sensitive hands to lapping, I hope in my evening prayer that Sunnen or somebody else get ready lapping machines what make lapping & pumping same way than hand lapping...I wait that Bill says: NEVER HAPPENS-:).

BR, Timo

Ps. Sorry about bad picture

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Friend gun fool Timo

Yesterday I got email where was picture and story that one inventor here has made slugging machine to rifle barrels.

Intresting some day compare what this machine tells and what hand slugging tells to same barrel.

But because Mr Calfee & Mr Tolvstad are not giving to us copy of their sensitive hands to lapping, I hope in my evening prayer that Sunnen or somebody else get ready lapping machines what make lapping & pumping same way than hand lapping...I wait that Bill says: NEVER HAPPENS-:).

BR, Timo

Ps. Sorry about bad picture

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Friend gun fool Timo:



If this "slugging machine" uses changes in the resistance required to push the slug, as the way of charting the graft, it will not work...


Years ago someone here in the US developed such a machine.......and it did not work...I mean, it did not tell any useful information about the condition of the bore....


Here's why:



A tight place in a bore feels exactly like a rough place in a bore to a pressure sensitive device......


So, these machines will not tell us actual useful information about a bore...



The only way to determine the difference between a tight place and a rough place, in a bore, is by measuring the slug.......which is a drawn out process requiring the slug to be pushed to the holiday, then pushed pushed back out the breech end of the bore, and measured...


I go into great detail in my book about this, under the Chapter titled "Take this job and slug it"....


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Your pistol fool friend, BC
 
I called yesterday evening to this inventor and he has made only this one proto type machine and it is now on our other Lapua 22 LR ammo test center to use.
He described on phone what kind of prints they got out when slugged 2 different Annie barrel and 1 Walther prone fr barrel.
This Walther is owned by one succesful paralympic shooter and reason why they like to see this barrels print, was that it shooted there on test centers batch test 30 shot group 12,5 mm (0,492") group outside to outside measured to 50 meter.
It was intresting to hear his story.

But then discussion goes more intresting.Not about this slugging machine anymore,but he has also made with VERY sensitive sensors measuring device and they studied 22 LR bullets outcoming from muzzle with Starik tuner what many position shooters use nowadays.
This kind of study is impossible to make with high speed cameras because it is difficult to get photos from muzzle when tuner is on its place.

They see many things about vibrations etc. but one was that when they shooted fast and barrels temperature was growing rf goes off from tuning and they must change this Starik tuners adjustment.
Bullet didnt come out on the same barrel muzzle location cold/warm with THIS tuner.
I was sold and we agree that we begin co-operation with him and we have many things to study with his device.
Maybe first made same study with Harrel tuner what they made with Starik tuner.
Many intresting things to see.Barrels muzzle EXACT location when bullet comes out when tuner is RIGHT adjusted and NOT right adjusted etc.


BR, Timo

Ps.I dont know can we find out something what put rf accuracy better but I wait intresting studies.
Maybe the same when I fished over 20 years without sonar.With my and my fathers experiences I know where fishes are.
When I got sonar, I see that fishes are there where I know they have been before sonar...Nothing changed...
 
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Friend gun fool Timo

But then discussion goes more intresting.Not about this slugging machine anymore,but he has also made with VERY sensitive sensors measuring device and they studied 22 LR bullets outcoming from muzzle with Starik tuner what many position shooters use nowadays.
This kind of study is impossible to make with high speed cameras because it is difficult to get photos from muzzle when tuner is on its place.



BR, Timo


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Friend gun fool Timo:


Here's is a description of the Starik tuner:


Description

The Starik Carbon Tube is a new barrel-tube for sporting rifles, developed from many years, int. successful Olympian, European Champion, and multiple World Cup winner from Israel, Guy Starik.

The tube including the tuner weights about 220gr. So 3p shooters have no problem dealing with the weight in front of the muzzle.
The tube has a tuner in order to tune the rifle for “positive compensation” in order to avoid vertical groups.
The clamp on the barrel is very short (25mm), in order to have the chock the tube has on the barrel, right at the muzzle. It improves accuracy.
The tube length is calculated by the barrel length using odd harmonies. There are 2 lengths of tubes: short (about 19cm), long (about 32cm).



Friend gun fool Timo:


Would this "tuner" work on a Class A RFBR gun?.........say like Black Death?



I mean, it controls "positive compensation", which avoids vertical groups.......

(The HH/MD on Black Death only stops the muzzle)



And the clamp is short so it pinches the muzzle right at the crown, which improves accuracy..

(The HH/MD is not clamped tight enough to pinch the muzzle of Black Death, maybe that's why Death doesn't shoot any better than it does.)


Oh, and the length of the tube is calculated by the barrel length, which controls the odd harmonics.....

(The HH/MD on Black Death doesn't even control the even harmonics, let alone the odd ones.)



Maybe Big Dog should try one of these "tuners" so he could control positive compensation to eliminate the vertical, and pinch the muzzle to help accuracy, and get Black Death tuned properly for the odd harmonics.




Friend gun fool Timo, if I were to describe a "tuner" that is the antithesis of the HH/MD, all I'd need to do is copy the description of the Starik "tuner" word for word.


Your pistol fool friend, BC
 
I am pretty sure that our country RFBR shooters has not even tested any Starik tuners.They use Harrels & Varide Cicognani Italy ones:

www.varidecicognani.it/en/shop/accessories--accessori_0/

There is possibility that Tomi Korpi knows something about Starik,because he is blueprinting sometimes rf:s to few position shooters.

But IF this sensitive measuring device make its job as they described to me there are many intresting things to get see / data.

I asked from this inventor that where did you get those measuring sensors? He answered: from NASA...Then he laughed and said no,but they are same ones what NASA use....

One our Germany friend has studied / built some kind of measuring devices also.Few pictures of his adventures.

Childrens are not healthy if they dont play....

BR, Timo

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Friend gun fool Timo

Friend gun fool Timo


Friend gun fool Timo:


A muzzle device has only one function......



That is, to "stop the muzzle" of a gun barrel when fired.



A muzzle device is set one time, when the contraption is new....


Thereafter it is never moved......never.



Friend gun fool Timo, it's been this way for the past 30 years......


When it comes to MD's....there's nothing new under the sun......nothing....


Once the muzzle is stopped, the deed is done until the barrel wears our....



The MD on Black Death has been at the same setting for 14 years..........and counting...

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Your pistol fool friend, Bill Calfee
 
Discussed yesterday evening again with this guy who has made this measuring decice to barrel vibration.

It has been done for some army projects few years ago,but they have done short measuring meeting about 4 years ago to only one rf there in Lapua Test Center.

He told me that we can get out exactly moment when bullets nose comes out of barrel,but cant get out excact moment when bullets tails comes out.
And see same time barrels muzzle location of vibration.
Reason is powder gas.

One thing what they see on short session with rf was that barrels muzzle location on vertical was not telling same to target where bullet goes.
I mean if barrels muzzle was up when bullet nose was on muzzle it didnt mean that bullet impact is up and conversely.
Ofcourse there is speed variation,maybe bullets lenght variation,etc.

I think when we find together time to make measuring session we shoot also chrono same time and when shooting to SIUS target we have enough "moving parts" , maybe too much...

Ok.Now it seems that we have a fiddle...I asked from our team members that what are we playing with this fiddle?

I am intrested to see vibration curves on the muzzle when tuner is its right place and then wrong place...

If anybody has ideas what/how we try to get out, please tell ideas!!!!

He send me 2 pictures and I dont understand what there is happening-:).Maybe bullets are leaving on different vertical locations of barrel muzzle.....
Maybe I understand later.....

BR, Timo

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Here is slugging machines print from 1 Annie barrel. It shooted about 15 mm (0,59 ") 10 shots groups to 50 meter.
-->Very good to squirrel hunting....(Outside to outside measured)

Vertical (y-axis) there is force (grams) and horizontal (x-axis) barrel lenght mm where slug was going.

Terrible tight barrel muzzle.Cant wait better than 15 mm....

BR, Timo

Ps.OOps picture didnt goes to horizontal...Sorry.


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Friend gun fool Timo

Here is slugging machines print from 1 Annie barrel. It shooted about 15 mm (0,59 ") 10 shots groups to 50 meter.
-->Very good to squirrel hunting....(Outside to outside measured)

Vertical (y-axis) there is force (grams) and horizontal (x-axis) barrel lenght mm where slug was going.

Terrible tight barrel muzzle.Cant wait better than 15 mm....

BR, Timo

Ps.OOps picture didnt goes to horizontal...Sorry.


View attachment 4266


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Friend gun fool Timo:


Does this slugging machine use resistance to the slug as the way of measuring?


Because if it does it will not work.......I've explained why elsewhere........


Your pistol fool friend, BC
 
Yes. This machine measure slug resistance force. It is same as "hand slugging" you dont know is it tight place or rough place before you slug the place.

On february we are going to slug with this machine few RFBR barrels and look what we get out.

From this machine you get printed slugging data out and by hand slugging we dont.

Same man has developed barrel vibration device and we are testing same day what we can get out of barrel vibration.

BR, Timo
 
Friend gun fool Timo

Yes. This machine measure slug resistance force. It is same as "hand slugging" you dont know is it tight place or rough place before you slug the place.

On february we are going to slug with this machine few RFBR barrels and look what we get out.

From this machine you get printed slugging data out and by hand slugging we dont.

Same man has developed barrel vibration device and we are testing same day what we can get out of barrel vibration.

BR, Timo


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Friend gun fool Timo:


I apologize for being an antagonist.....


But.............



A slugging machine that uses pressure against the slug to plot the graph can not distinguish a tight place in the bore from a rough place in the bore..


Therefore............


After the machine plots its graph, you're going to have to hand slug and measure the bore to find out whether the place is tight or rough..


So you're still going to have to hand slug and measure either way...so what's the point of using the machine?



You're always thinking, friend Timo.......I like that....that's why you've got your own Forum here at CYA....


Your pistol fool friend, BC
 
PPC guys said to me that leave little vertical to your groups.when loading... It buck wind better they says...

This picture just come to my phone. 4 our team members are testing rf:s now there in Lapua Schönebeck.

Maybe they have listened too much PPC guys when we look picture they send just from Germany -:).

BR,

Timo.

Ps. But IF slugging machine shows this barrel bad, we dont buy the machine....

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