MikeMcAllister
Member
What does a person do to learn how 'adjustments' affect initial retardation, so a person can become a better shooter?
Controlling initial retardation....skill or luck?
- Thread starter Bill Calfee
- Start date
Tony K Harper
Active member
Please don't take this as being curt or smart.
There is only one way and that is practice with the equipment you are going to compete with.
Practice with good equipment will make it a shorter journey. But it will be a journey.
There are no short cuts!!
TKH
There is only one way and that is practice with the equipment you are going to compete with.
Practice with good equipment will make it a shorter journey. But it will be a journey.
There are no short cuts!!
TKH
Bill Calfee
Gun Fool
One additional comment:
For the small hand full of RFBR shooters who've been fortunate enough to have luck control your initial retardation, count your blessings..
Your LBK and pistol fool friend, Bill Calfee
MikeMcAllister
Member
Good advice. I am starting to accumulate better equipment; and I will be practicing. I just ordered a surgical tubing bungee to use for initial retardation.
Any suggestions on how to use this bungee?
Tony K Harper
Active member
I have tried roller rest, cords, magnets, slick material, ruff material, lose holds, locked down hard holds. Shoulder pressure, no pressure, etc, etc.
In the end I find I like holding the rifle with my right hand. I'm such a control freak I want to do the driving and not just be a curious observer to the shooting that is taking place.
TKH
In the end I find I like holding the rifle with my right hand. I'm such a control freak I want to do the driving and not just be a curious observer to the shooting that is taking place.
TKH
Last edited:
Todd Earhart
Member
Curious observer. Dang. If I had feelings that would have hurt them.
Todd
Todd
Tony K Harper
Active member
Todd,
Don’t take me that serious. Shoot however you like best. We all have to find our own way.
TKH
Todd Earhart
Member
We take serious from positive testing results. Like you said, we all have to find what works best for the individual. All that matters is the target.
Todd
Todd Earhart
Member
Mr.Calfee, Mr.Harper, Everyone... How do you determine initial resistance to recoil amount on a new build? How would a person know where to start? This is a good discussion and I would bet will be helpful to some.
Todd
Todd
Bill Calfee
Gun Fool
Friend Tony "TD Junior" Harper:
TDX, I know you've got the IR Nationals coming up at Fairchance this week-end, so no rush for what I'm about to ask you....
Now, what's your opinion about the international RFBR folks going to 12 power scopes for sporter?........no hurry, whenever you have time...OK.
Oh, does Junior have one more National Championship in him?........( I'm just thinking out loud, here)
Your LBK and pistol fool friend, Bill Calfee
Friend Todd E:
The first thing is to make sure your stock can actually be used to control initial retardation....
Either make it straight line properly, or, make sure it has rest points that give 250" of straight line when on your rest points, then work around them....
Todd, if your stock is not capable of some form of straight line ability, it's impossible to control the initial retardation..
Your LBK and pistol fool friend, Bill Calfee
Todd Earhart
Member
Tad is going to post a couple pictures when he has time. The pictures are of my rifle during the build. It was the rifle we used to test different things on. Now all of our rifles are like it.
Todd
Todd
Tad Earhart
Member
These pictures are a little blurry, but I think will still provide what is needed. These are pictures of the same stock just before and after painting. These pictures are highlighting the adjustable rudder that goes onto all of our rifles now. The rudder is made from ground A2 and is micro adjustable in both elevation, windage, cant, and sag/bow along its 6 inch length. The front of the stock sports a 3" channel that is fitted to the stock and then finish machined with the barreled action in place to indicate from just like Mr. Mike had thought about earlier in this thread. These make for being able to adjust the placement of the rifle/stock in the rest a breeze to find the best balance points anywhere along their contact points. In our rests the crosshairs never move off the dot of the target from movement of the rifle in the direction of recoil. We had stocks on our rifles before that I had hand "Trued" to track pretty good in the rest but it was not near what this setup has produced for us.
Tad
MikeMcAllister
Member
Wonderful. Do you achieve the micro adjustments via screws, somehow; or just shimming?
Also, the 3" channel in the front; is it square 3" x 3" or is it 3" wide by a longer dimension? It looks like it might be A2 also? About 1/2" thick?
I just purchased a used rifle from Gene Davis in Pleasantville, OH. But I do not have it yet. I plan on picking it up later in August. I am excited about finally having a decent rifle. Now I just want to figure out how to have it tracking straight back on recoil. This thread is going to help a lot. Thanks much.
MikeMcAllister
Member
So...it looks like you first 'embedded' a steel rail into the stock (orange picture) with epoxy?? And then bolted another steel rail to the embedded rail; where the 4 bolts offset from centerline provide the adjustments for cant; and the two bolts on the ends clamp the rail down. Is that right? And it looks like there are setscrews (only one?) that push on the back and front clamp bolts to provide windage. Cool. Slick patent. I can see where this is much better than just embedding a rail and machining it parallel.
I am really curious how to attached the first embedded rail. Not that I do not trust glue...ha. I had a Loctite salesman tell me years ago that they had glue that could glue a skyscraper together and it would be stronger than rivets and welds...but nobody would believe it; ...including me.
Sorry to be so curious; but I am curious guy. If you do not want to go into detail, I can understand your right to privacy. I appreciate this help, immensely.
Tad Earhart
Member
It is hard to see but on the sides at the rear hold down screw of the rudder, there are set screws to adjust and lock the windage side of the adjustments. The offset set screws on the face(what would be the bottom of the stock when in the rest) adjust height, cant, and the bow/sag of the rudder. Once I find the right heights I am looking for on the bar, if needed I will place ring shims under the hold down bolts between it and the A2 that is epoxied into the stock just to make it more secure at the correct height.
The front channel is 3" (actually I think 2.985" finished to be specific) wide by the same 6" long just like the rear rudder length. It is aluminum and 1/8" wall C-channel purchased from McMaster Carr. It is readily available and already close to the right size I was looking for, for a cheap price so it made a good candidate for these jobs. The stock had to be milled down slightly up there to make it fit the inside width of 2.750" of the channel. It also works out that the typical stock needs a little truing up in that area anyways to attach the channel onto it in a somewhat straight manner before the final machining is done.
The first RFBR rifle we ever purchased was originally smithed by Gene Davis. It was a ULA with one of the Lija tight bore barrels on it. I have since done quite a bit to that rifle and re-barreled it but it has brought us a ton of joy and provided the avenue into this sport that my family and I enjoy today. That rifle even produced the first ARA 2500 for the family when dad shot it at a Louisiana Indoor Match some years ago. I hope the your rifle can provide you with some of the same joy that we have experienced in this sport!
Tad
EDIT: I see that we posted at almost the same time here. On the Loctite stuff, I believe there is an old story of them building a motor for a cup car that had no bolts, only glued together with loctite that completed laps at Daytona without ever coming apart. If that is true or not I do not know but if so impressive. I know that as much loctite 648/609 I have used, if you apply it right and on semi clean parts, it WILL take HEAT to separate the parts again. Heat in the range of 400+ degrees F for the non heat resistance products. I trust it just fine.
All of the gluing of these parts was done with Devcon Liquid steel epoxy and there are also mechanical locks cut into the mating parts to help key them into place. They will not be coming apart without cutting them apart.
The front channel is 3" (actually I think 2.985" finished to be specific) wide by the same 6" long just like the rear rudder length. It is aluminum and 1/8" wall C-channel purchased from McMaster Carr. It is readily available and already close to the right size I was looking for, for a cheap price so it made a good candidate for these jobs. The stock had to be milled down slightly up there to make it fit the inside width of 2.750" of the channel. It also works out that the typical stock needs a little truing up in that area anyways to attach the channel onto it in a somewhat straight manner before the final machining is done.
The first RFBR rifle we ever purchased was originally smithed by Gene Davis. It was a ULA with one of the Lija tight bore barrels on it. I have since done quite a bit to that rifle and re-barreled it but it has brought us a ton of joy and provided the avenue into this sport that my family and I enjoy today. That rifle even produced the first ARA 2500 for the family when dad shot it at a Louisiana Indoor Match some years ago. I hope the your rifle can provide you with some of the same joy that we have experienced in this sport!
Tad
EDIT: I see that we posted at almost the same time here. On the Loctite stuff, I believe there is an old story of them building a motor for a cup car that had no bolts, only glued together with loctite that completed laps at Daytona without ever coming apart. If that is true or not I do not know but if so impressive. I know that as much loctite 648/609 I have used, if you apply it right and on semi clean parts, it WILL take HEAT to separate the parts again. Heat in the range of 400+ degrees F for the non heat resistance products. I trust it just fine.
All of the gluing of these parts was done with Devcon Liquid steel epoxy and there are also mechanical locks cut into the mating parts to help key them into place. They will not be coming apart without cutting them apart.
Last edited:
MikeMcAllister
Member
Thank you very much for the detail. I wish I had my own machine tools...I did at one time in the past. But I do have a friend that has a lathe, with DRO, Bridgeport with numeric control, a surface grinder and other miscellaneous equipment. I toured his shop last week. On the way out the door he mentioned "If you have any projects you want to work on, let me know.". Thanks Tad. It was very nice of you to share these details. I hope this can help other people, too.
MikeMcAllister
Member
Amazing story about your dad and shooting a 2500, and the coincidence of Gene Davis. Thanks for sharing.
Never too old to learn. I am close to 72 years young, and I guess I am getting started 'a bit late' in ARA, but it is fun; although I admit a little frustrating with the rifles I have tried so far. My 'new to me' rifle, from Gene Davis, is a Trident, Shilen ratchet, Harrell tuner, Jewell trigger, in a Randy Owens stock. Gene shot a test 2350 with it...probably easy for Gene to do...
Bill Calfee
Gun Fool
Amazing story about your dad and shooting a 2500, and the coincidence of Gene Davis. Thanks for sharing.
Never too old to learn. I am close to 72 years young, and I guess I am getting started 'a bit late' in ARA, but it is fun; although I admit a little frustrating with the rifles I have tried so far. My 'new to me' rifle, from Gene Davis, is a Trident, Shilen ratchet, Harrell tuner, Jewell trigger, in a Randy Owens stock. Gene shot a test 2350 with it...probably easy for Gene to do...
Friend MikeMcAllister:
Mike, one should never purchase a used, or new, RFBR gun until one shoots it....
Did you shoot this rifle before you purchased it?
Your LBK and pistol fool friend, Bill Calfee
MikeMcAllister
Member
I sent a check in the mail, and I will shoot the rifle, with Gene Davis, when I drive out to pick up the rifle. He worked it over for extraction issues (headspace too tight) and tuned it. He wants me to shoot it. And he stated he stands behind anything he sells.
Nebraska is so 'poor' when it comes to ARA shooters and knowledge and rimfire gunsmiths, I am more than excited about driving out to Ohio. Check the Nebraska ARA statistics; there just are not that many of us, compared to 'back East' where you live.
I realize (I have read "The Art of Rimfire Accuracy" three times now), that I am buying a SAP rifle, which you do not prefer. I shoot with a friend that has many rifles, but he is not likely to part with a Turbo that shoots really good. I am not faulting him; if I had a winning rifle, I would not sell it either.
Your advice is spot on. Thank you for taking the time to respond.
Bill Calfee
Gun Fool
Friend MM:
Gene Davis is one of the finest RFBR schmidts, extent...
But you're purchasing a SAP gun that has fired a 2350....which won't draw a smell in RFBR today.................
BC
Last edited: