I'm just an average shooter with an average rifle and after testing ammo, can usually find a lot code that I can rely on. I consider myself very good at reading the wind and it's condition and can correctly adjust for most wind conditions. My problem is lack of wind or what my flags are saying is dead calm. My rifle is well tuned (stopped muzzle) and with a light breeze has no problem grouping in the high .1s to low .2s, with normal average wind conditions at a match I can agg. 2100-2200 ARA, poor switching conditions or gusty winds will pull my aggs. down to 2000 or worse. What I want to know is why in what appears to be a dead calm I can barely agg. in the 1900s with bullets seemingly going anywhere other than the dot? Some people liken it to how a knuckle ball flies. Now I'm not talking way out, but it seems like I will get a dozen line cutters on a target (high, low, left, right) that I feel should be an excellent target other than 1 or 2 ammo inconsistence's. I've been told lot's of theories, from thermals to mirage but I can't grasp any of them when one shot will hit low left for a 50 and the very next shot might hit at 3 Oclock for a 50 and the shot after that may hit high left or right. Especially when these matches are won by aggs above 2300. So what do you guys say? First off, has anyone else had this problem? Did you find a solution? Does anyone have ammo they specifically use in the calm? Have you found certain bbls, rifling style, or twist rates that work better in the calm? This drove me crazy last season and even stopped me from competing at a range that held matches in the evening calm, so any advise would be appreciated.
Let's talk no wind
- Thread starter Cliff
- Start date
Grant Toman
New member
Cliff, First I'm new to this forum and I don't usually post replies to any of them but your 2 year old post certainly got my attention because NO one here including BC would touch this one that has plagued many BR shooters from the beginning. The only thing I can think of is that they don't know and don't want anybody else to know they don't know, but I believe that's not the case. I will say what Tony Boyer always said, never shoot in a let up.......
Bill Calfee
Gun Fool
Friend Cliff
Friend Cliff
_____________________________
Why I've never responded to your post I don't know......old age.....
Below are three photos taken in a 2 minute span........gun never touched......
Obviously, if one had a perfect dead air zero, and held dead center during these conditions, they'd shoot nothing but 50's with the most accurate RFBR gun on earth.
That old saying, "you can't hit what you can't see", most certainly applies to shooting in calm conditions.
Grasping the affect of mirage is most difficult for a lot of shooters...
I know very seasoned shooters who do not believe mirage can alter their calm condition shooting, like it really does.
They simply refuse to believe it.
Your friend, Bill Calfee
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Friend Cliff
_____________________________
Why I've never responded to your post I don't know......old age.....
Below are three photos taken in a 2 minute span........gun never touched......
Obviously, if one had a perfect dead air zero, and held dead center during these conditions, they'd shoot nothing but 50's with the most accurate RFBR gun on earth.
That old saying, "you can't hit what you can't see", most certainly applies to shooting in calm conditions.
Grasping the affect of mirage is most difficult for a lot of shooters...
I know very seasoned shooters who do not believe mirage can alter their calm condition shooting, like it really does.
They simply refuse to believe it.
Your friend, Bill Calfee
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Grant Toman
New member
Boy that was quick..... Thanks BC for clearing that up......
Bill Calfee
Gun Fool
Friends karls42 and Grant Toman
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Friends karls42 and Grant Toman
Back when I took these pictures I posted, I actually took about 10 minutes worth.....including some dead calm, 'boil" as Karls42 calls it.
I'll try to find them and post them....the dot was up and down then....
I posted these particular pictures, because, if you look closely, a little left to right drift had came in......look at the little strip hanging from the tree on the left.
The dot on the target moved with that little drift....
__________________________
Now, I have a comment and then a question:
Jeff "Carolina Girl" Jeffreys won the most recent indoor PSL, while kicking out big numbers....I mean big numbers.
Tony "TDX" Harper won the most recent indoor ARA National, while kicking out big numbers...I mean big numbers.
And Chuck "Deuces Wild" Morrell won both big events at the recent indoor "Triple Deuces", while kicking out big numbers...I mean big numbers.
And they do this all the time, none of the three is a "one match wonder".....it's every time they shoot indoors...
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So here's my question:
How in the world do they do it.....especially when all over these internet rimfire sites, folks are moaning about the "ghosts" indoors?
How come so many folks have trouble in the calm, and these three keep kicking out them big numbers in the calm, time after time?
Anyone have an answer?
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There's one thing all three have in common: Dan Muller's 4-MI barrels.
I know for a fact that TDX and Deuces Wild are 16 twist....
I suspect Carolina Girl is also a 16 twist.
Makes you wonder, don't it?
Your friend, Bill Calfee
__________________________
Friends karls42 and Grant Toman
Back when I took these pictures I posted, I actually took about 10 minutes worth.....including some dead calm, 'boil" as Karls42 calls it.
I'll try to find them and post them....the dot was up and down then....
I posted these particular pictures, because, if you look closely, a little left to right drift had came in......look at the little strip hanging from the tree on the left.
The dot on the target moved with that little drift....
__________________________
Now, I have a comment and then a question:
Jeff "Carolina Girl" Jeffreys won the most recent indoor PSL, while kicking out big numbers....I mean big numbers.
Tony "TDX" Harper won the most recent indoor ARA National, while kicking out big numbers...I mean big numbers.
And Chuck "Deuces Wild" Morrell won both big events at the recent indoor "Triple Deuces", while kicking out big numbers...I mean big numbers.
And they do this all the time, none of the three is a "one match wonder".....it's every time they shoot indoors...
____________________________________
So here's my question:
How in the world do they do it.....especially when all over these internet rimfire sites, folks are moaning about the "ghosts" indoors?
How come so many folks have trouble in the calm, and these three keep kicking out them big numbers in the calm, time after time?
Anyone have an answer?
____________________________________
There's one thing all three have in common: Dan Muller's 4-MI barrels.
I know for a fact that TDX and Deuces Wild are 16 twist....
I suspect Carolina Girl is also a 16 twist.
Makes you wonder, don't it?
Your friend, Bill Calfee
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wsmallwood
Member
Bill,
I recall last year when I was shooting a match in Bowling Green. I think it was July. Jim Ayers Jr. commented to me that his POA moved a full bullet hole without being touched. We were on two relays, and I think he was on 1 and I was on 2. Since I didn't have to move, I just set my scope POA on a nailhead when my relay was over. When I sat back down the POA was two full inches to the right. Now I know why. But I actually shot pretty good that day. What I don't know is how. Because like you say "you can't hit what you can't see".
I recall last year when I was shooting a match in Bowling Green. I think it was July. Jim Ayers Jr. commented to me that his POA moved a full bullet hole without being touched. We were on two relays, and I think he was on 1 and I was on 2. Since I didn't have to move, I just set my scope POA on a nailhead when my relay was over. When I sat back down the POA was two full inches to the right. Now I know why. But I actually shot pretty good that day. What I don't know is how. Because like you say "you can't hit what you can't see".
Bill Calfee
Gun Fool
Friend wsmallwood
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Friend WS:
Yes.
It's amazing what mirage will do....
I was testing a new Muller MI this evening.....bad windy, but right before dark it laid.......almost.
This new barrel was killing it.......but, I had to force myself to forget where my cross hair was on the bull, and simply pull the trigger...I as shooting groups RTB.
I put the dot in the middle of the bull, then would start a group.
My new group would either start forming dead center, or, at 9:00 cutting the 100 ring......
And no matter which place the new group started, I had to RTB and pull the trigger, no matter where the dot had drifted to.
On one group that started dead center, with the first two looking like a single bullet hole, when I re-loaded and RTB the dot was centering the 100 ring at 3:00.........
One's first inclination would be to move the dot back to the center........but if I did that, the bullet would strike the 100 ring at 9:00...
So I had to force myself to simply pull the trigger, no matter where the new POA was located when I RTB......
_________________________
By the way, there was no way I could run a card in those conditions......not without several flags down range.....I had no flags up, as usual.
I did run a couple of rows, simply centering the bull each shot.......all ten shots were on a string vertically, but they were either pinwheel 100"s or 50's at 9:00.....
It was amazing......I could have overlapped the 7 100's and they would have looked like a single bullet hole...
Same with the three 50's at 9:00.....overlapped they would have been a single bullet hole at 9:00...
__________________________
Now, I get back to the same thought/question:
How does TDX, Carolina Girl and Deuces Wild kick out them big numbers, every single time they shoot in the calm, indoors?
Especially with so many folks having trouble shooting in the calm........indoors or out......?
Your friend, BC
_____________________________
Friend WS:
Yes.
It's amazing what mirage will do....
I was testing a new Muller MI this evening.....bad windy, but right before dark it laid.......almost.
This new barrel was killing it.......but, I had to force myself to forget where my cross hair was on the bull, and simply pull the trigger...I as shooting groups RTB.
I put the dot in the middle of the bull, then would start a group.
My new group would either start forming dead center, or, at 9:00 cutting the 100 ring......
And no matter which place the new group started, I had to RTB and pull the trigger, no matter where the dot had drifted to.
On one group that started dead center, with the first two looking like a single bullet hole, when I re-loaded and RTB the dot was centering the 100 ring at 3:00.........
One's first inclination would be to move the dot back to the center........but if I did that, the bullet would strike the 100 ring at 9:00...
So I had to force myself to simply pull the trigger, no matter where the new POA was located when I RTB......
_________________________
By the way, there was no way I could run a card in those conditions......not without several flags down range.....I had no flags up, as usual.
I did run a couple of rows, simply centering the bull each shot.......all ten shots were on a string vertically, but they were either pinwheel 100"s or 50's at 9:00.....
It was amazing......I could have overlapped the 7 100's and they would have looked like a single bullet hole...
Same with the three 50's at 9:00.....overlapped they would have been a single bullet hole at 9:00...
__________________________
Now, I get back to the same thought/question:
How does TDX, Carolina Girl and Deuces Wild kick out them big numbers, every single time they shoot in the calm, indoors?
Especially with so many folks having trouble shooting in the calm........indoors or out......?
Your friend, BC
Grant Toman
New member
Bill,
I believe that all three have the ability to "feel" what is going on or not around the bench which I know myself has all to do with bullet placement. I'm able to pickup on it sometimes to the point where it is more truthful than a flag/tail condition..... To me these shooters would still kick butt even without the best barrel/ammo combinations..... I hope I'm explaining this correctly.....
GT
I believe that all three have the ability to "feel" what is going on or not around the bench which I know myself has all to do with bullet placement. I'm able to pickup on it sometimes to the point where it is more truthful than a flag/tail condition..... To me these shooters would still kick butt even without the best barrel/ammo combinations..... I hope I'm explaining this correctly.....
GT
Todd Earhart
Member
I wish this post would carry on. Its very interesting. Todd
Grant Toman
New member
Todd, it would be interesting to see where we would end up..... Everybody has their own deal figured out as to when to shoot and when not to.... I guess you could compare it to driving a race car or riding a motorcycle, there are people on this planet that have a better sense as to what is happening around them.... they feel things that "normal" individuals can't, it's a gift for true!
GT
Bill Calfee
Gun Fool
Friend Toman
____________________________
Friend Grant Toman:
The fact remains, that these shooters do have the best equipment in the world....
This demonstrates that, when you place the best equipment in the world, in the hands of the best shooters in the world, they will produce the record of accomplishment, at the big nationals, like they have over these last 27 years.....
Friend GT, the three most important events in big time RFBR, the ARA National in St. Louis, the ARA Indoor National at Rocky River, and, the PSL Grand Championship, were all won this past year by these CYankees....
The Duck Hawk winning the biggie, the St. Louis ARA National, plus, the PSL Grand Championship, and, Tony TDX Harper winning the most recent big national, the ARA Indoor at Rocky River.....
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Friend GT, the best shooter in the world can not win without the best equipment...
And, the best equipment in the world is worthless in the hands of a poor shooter.....
__________________
These CYankee, National Champions, have both............they are the world's most talented shooters, with the world's best equipment.
Your friend, Bill Calfee
____________________________
Friend Grant Toman:
The fact remains, that these shooters do have the best equipment in the world....
This demonstrates that, when you place the best equipment in the world, in the hands of the best shooters in the world, they will produce the record of accomplishment, at the big nationals, like they have over these last 27 years.....
Friend GT, the three most important events in big time RFBR, the ARA National in St. Louis, the ARA Indoor National at Rocky River, and, the PSL Grand Championship, were all won this past year by these CYankees....
The Duck Hawk winning the biggie, the St. Louis ARA National, plus, the PSL Grand Championship, and, Tony TDX Harper winning the most recent big national, the ARA Indoor at Rocky River.....
__________________
Friend GT, the best shooter in the world can not win without the best equipment...
And, the best equipment in the world is worthless in the hands of a poor shooter.....
__________________
These CYankee, National Champions, have both............they are the world's most talented shooters, with the world's best equipment.
Your friend, Bill Calfee
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Grant Toman
New member
BC,
Your spot on about that, but I think they would still do fine without the best equipment.....
GT
Your spot on about that, but I think they would still do fine without the best equipment.....
GT
Bill Calfee
Gun Fool
Friend GT
____________________
Friend GT:
For these particular shooters, doing "fine" is not an option.
____________________
Hopefully you'll get some more dialogue about shooting in the calm.
Your friend, BC
____________________
Friend GT:
For these particular shooters, doing "fine" is not an option.
____________________
Hopefully you'll get some more dialogue about shooting in the calm.
Your friend, BC
Grant Toman
New member
BC,
Apparently I didn't explain it correctly...... I was referring to ones ability not equipment or anything else.....
GT
Apparently I didn't explain it correctly...... I was referring to ones ability not equipment or anything else.....
GT
Bill Calfee
Gun Fool
Friend GT
_____________________________
Friend GT:
Yes, I fully understood your comment.....
Like I said, these particular shooters are not satisfied with just doing "fine"....
For them, 2nd place, at the big nationals, is no better than last place....
Therefore, they surround themselves with the absolute best equipment in the world.....
_________________________
Friend GT, every one of these shooters fully understand, that in big time RFBR, it is impossible to win the big nationals without the best equipment in the world.....
The Good Lord may be able to take sub-standard equipment and win these big nationals strictly on His shooting skill...
But us humans can't......
__________________________________
Hopefully the "shooting in the calm" dialogue will pick up...
Your friend, BC
_____________________________
Friend GT:
Yes, I fully understood your comment.....
Like I said, these particular shooters are not satisfied with just doing "fine"....
For them, 2nd place, at the big nationals, is no better than last place....
Therefore, they surround themselves with the absolute best equipment in the world.....
_________________________
Friend GT, every one of these shooters fully understand, that in big time RFBR, it is impossible to win the big nationals without the best equipment in the world.....
The Good Lord may be able to take sub-standard equipment and win these big nationals strictly on His shooting skill...
But us humans can't......
__________________________________
Hopefully the "shooting in the calm" dialogue will pick up...
Your friend, BC
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Grant Toman
New member
I had enough, your reading more into this and I don't understand why...... of course these shooters are going to use the best paraphernalia they can, that's not the point, don't you get it......
Todd Earhart
Member
Ill add this, equipment is everything. Ive been in some type of competition better part of my life. Mostly racing. Ability will only get you so far, then money/equipment. Sad but true. On wind, I want to have our rifles poa to poi in no wind if I have to do it at 2 am under lights. My thinking on this is there is no way I can attempt a hold off for conditions without it. There may be a better way but I dont know how. I know this dont help with no wind but if I cant see it on the flags I cant fix it. Cant fix it alot of the time when I can see it on the flags. Haha. Todd
Bill Calfee
Gun Fool
Friend Todd Earhart
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Friend Todd Earhart:
Actually, your excellent comment does help with no wind shooting.....cause it says it all.......
You can't hit what you can't see.....
__________________________________
Here's a couple of comments about no wind shooting:
There are some folks who believe the 22 RF bullet simply will not stabilize in the calm....
I've heard seasoned shooters say their bullets needed a "push" from the wind before they could kick out big scores.
Now the other side of shooting in the calm:
In calm conditions, at times, the image of the target is actually displaced, so if one has the most accurate gun in the world, and you point it at the target image, that is not the actual location of the physical target, you'll miss the 100 every time.....because you aren't actually pointing the cross hairs at the 100 ring.....you're pointing at the displaced image of the 100 ring.
This displaced image is so real, that a lot of very seasoned folks simply will not allow themselves to believe it's actually happening.
Even my old centerfire friend Gene Beggs felt this way......although he did recant his position later on....( which is a most interesting mirage story, and its effect)
______________________________
So, which is it.......?
Is it true the 22 rimfire bullet will not stabilize without a "push" from the wind?
Or, is it simply impossible to hit what one can't see, because of the calm condition's displacement of the target image?
Your friend, Bill Calfee
______________________________
Friend Todd Earhart:
Actually, your excellent comment does help with no wind shooting.....cause it says it all.......
You can't hit what you can't see.....
__________________________________
Here's a couple of comments about no wind shooting:
There are some folks who believe the 22 RF bullet simply will not stabilize in the calm....
I've heard seasoned shooters say their bullets needed a "push" from the wind before they could kick out big scores.
Now the other side of shooting in the calm:
In calm conditions, at times, the image of the target is actually displaced, so if one has the most accurate gun in the world, and you point it at the target image, that is not the actual location of the physical target, you'll miss the 100 every time.....because you aren't actually pointing the cross hairs at the 100 ring.....you're pointing at the displaced image of the 100 ring.
This displaced image is so real, that a lot of very seasoned folks simply will not allow themselves to believe it's actually happening.
Even my old centerfire friend Gene Beggs felt this way......although he did recant his position later on....( which is a most interesting mirage story, and its effect)
______________________________
So, which is it.......?
Is it true the 22 rimfire bullet will not stabilize without a "push" from the wind?
Or, is it simply impossible to hit what one can't see, because of the calm condition's displacement of the target image?
Your friend, Bill Calfee
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I will agree a lot of the problem is mirage if there is any air movement.
I have paid close attention since my original post and have found that I must watch the tails on my flags very closely in what sometimes seems to be dead calm. The flags can all be pointed one direction with no movement but the slightest movement of the tails to the left or right will push the mirage a huge amount.
Paying more attention to mirage in the calm has helped my scores but still there is more to it than just mirage since cool calm mirage basically moves left or right unlike a boil in the hot summer sun I would expect if the problem was due to mirage my targets would show most of the out shots to be left or right and that's not usually the case. When I examine my targets shot in dead calm they are fairly equal in the number of shots going out North and South with the ones going out east and west.
Any more theories?
I have paid close attention since my original post and have found that I must watch the tails on my flags very closely in what sometimes seems to be dead calm. The flags can all be pointed one direction with no movement but the slightest movement of the tails to the left or right will push the mirage a huge amount.
Paying more attention to mirage in the calm has helped my scores but still there is more to it than just mirage since cool calm mirage basically moves left or right unlike a boil in the hot summer sun I would expect if the problem was due to mirage my targets would show most of the out shots to be left or right and that's not usually the case. When I examine my targets shot in dead calm they are fairly equal in the number of shots going out North and South with the ones going out east and west.
Any more theories?