Wind - we will always be learning

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PedroS

Active member
i think the most demanding thing on benchrest shooting is the ability to wind read.

I will start this thread answering to Mike:

"Dear Pedro,
I am new to ARA (two 6-card matches last year and May, June and July, this year, six cards each). I am having trouble 'reading the wind'. I am in the process of setting up two "Besche Win De-Cator" wind strength indicators, in addition to my four Graham wind flags. Do I need more/other equipment or just more experience? I know I need more experience because I am currently near the bottom of the pack.

Do you have any tips you can share on reading the wind? I am anxious to learn all I can.

Thanks much."

Reading the wind is a complex thing, but knowing from where it's blowing is much easier.
I always preach make your life easier not harder. And this is even more true regarding wind and wind tools.
I name wind tools, any device used to show what the wind is doing at that particular spot.

By the way, there's an interesting thread about mirage. We should couple both information, but understand that mirage is just another wind tool.

We have many types of wind tools, and if rewind to my aeromodelling free flight F1B and C times, I used soap bubbles to show wind and more important thermals.
Well mirage is a vision distortion due to thermals. That's why, in the early morning, or cloudy days mirage is non existing or faint.

You said you are starting so my 1st advice is don't overload yourself with too much info (like Jeff said).This is critical for a good understanding and learning curve.
You have to know that's a slow learning curve related to wind reading. Not trying to demoralise you but better to know it than getting frustrated.

Some basics (we are simplifying things here):
1. wind is nothing more than air moving
2. wind runs in corridors, some could be in opposite directions having turbulence on boundaries
3. turbulence is a non laminar air movement
4. wind has patterns that reproduce in a cycle way
5. any obstacle in the wind's way will cause deflection, turbulence and speed variables before and after that obstacle
6. the faster the bullet (subsonic) the more deflection

Some common used (mine) nomenclature:
1. green wind - wind coming from right to left
2. red wind - wind coming from left to right
3. POI - point of impact
4. POA - point of aim

By the book wind bullet deflections:
1. green wind - bullet left and high
2. red wind - bullet right and low
3. face wind - bullet down
4. tail wind - bullet up

Those are the basics to understand where to aim to compensate the wind. Of course, larger or smaller, compensations are needed depending on wind speed.
There are many rose winds on the internet where depending of wind direction they give the corresponding POA.

Rose wind.jpg
Typical rose wind.

At this stage I won't recommend any wind probes, just flags.
Not to make this post too long, I will post some more pictures from "The Wind; BR50 Webinars; 2021/12; Serralheiro, Pedro"
These pictures will have the important points to know and understand about flags. Please don't use complex ones. Again, simple is best.

wind tools.jpg


wind flags.jpeg

wind probe.jpg


And answering you, how many should you use?
I will start with two, one near the muzzle, and another half way to the target.
Practice and understand where the bullets go depending of different winds. When you feel more confident put another in between, but don't go too fast. Better to be able to read one flag than being lost in a number of wind tools.
 
What an excellent, excellent concise tutorial. I especially appreciate the bullet deflections list because I seem to have more trouble with up/down than anything.
This is fairly easy to remember:

From Pedro:
"By the book wind bullet deflections:
1. green wind - bullet left and high
2. red wind - bullet right and low
3. face wind - bullet down
4. tail wind - bullet up"

My vane flags are 'simple' in that they are just red/green vanes with black/white balls and tails on the vanes.

One of the guys I shoot with told me he watches the probe type as much as anything, because it indicates the 'bullet push' of the wind, according to him.

Seems you are saying flags are better than probes, if I understand you correctly. And obviously, a probe does not indicate face or tail wind, which affect the vertical.

For 50-yard ARA I placed my flags at 10, 20, 30 and 40 yards. Is this OK, or is there a better placement?

From Pedro: "I will start with two, one near the muzzle, and another half way to the target."
How close to the muzzle? Is 10 yards too far away?

One issue I face is that where I shoot, there are two overhead plywood baffles mounted on posts to keep people from shooting high. They are placed about 10 and 15 yards away from the firing line. There are berms and trees on either side of the range, which faces mostly west. My experience has been a lot of swirling wind, which is driving me crazy. The wind comes in from the south and east, or north and west, and I have seen wind flags going in opposite directions and cycling back and forth.

Maybe I should just find an indoor range, ha, ha. There are none in my area.

Thanks for your time. I appreciate it very, very much.
 
Dear Pedro,

Just to mention it; I am somewhat familiar with the idea that only 9 o'clock and 3 o'clock winds are 'full value' winds that affectively push the bullet the most horizontally. And that winds other than 9 and 3 will have some vertical component in their 'push'.
 
Dear Pedro,

Sorry; I am full of questions. How many sighters should I be shooting to dope the wind on an ARA target? I usually shoot around 5 shots to foul the barrel and dope the wind before I start the card. But I have not been shooting further sighters, unless I feel the wind is hard to read.

Thanks for the help.
 
Wow, so many questions... šŸ˜
No worries, keep them coming.

But, again, take it easy. Don't try to assimilate all in a sudden...

So, to the questions:

Seems you are saying flags are better than probes, if I understand you correctly. And obviously, a probe does not indicate face or tail wind, which affect the vertical.
Yes, I do favour flags instead of probes. Couple of reasons: To which wind speed are they calibrated? Unknown, so better to shoot only when they are upwards with no movement. Ok, for score (maybe) but you'll never learn to POA according to conditions. They lie even more than flags. Indeed, wind tools are tiers, because they can only show what's have gone, not what's is going to arrive. And, it's that type of wind that really matters.
Develop a global vision and fight against a tunnel one. That's why is so important to keep an eye on others flags.

For 50-yard ARA I placed my flags at 10, 20, 30 and 40 yards. Is this OK, or is there a better placement?
I won't put my flags according to a certain distance. I put them before and after any obstacle.

How close to the muzzle? Is 10 yards too far away?
My 1st flag is around 2m from muzzle. When a range doesn't allow, I put it immediately where I can. This is one of the most important flags (well, sometimes...)

One issue I face is that where I shoot, there are two overhead plywood baffles mounted on posts to keep people from shooting high. They are placed about 10 and 15 yards away from the firing line. There are berms and trees on either side of the range, which faces mostly west. My experience has been a lot of swirling wind, which is driving me crazy. The wind comes in from the south and east, or north and west, and I have seen wind flags going in opposite directions and cycling back and forth.
This is typical in many ranges. That's why I put 1 flag before and 1 flag after the obstacle. That way I can see the differences and shoot accordingly.

Just to mention it; I am somewhat familiar with the idea that only 9 o'clock and 3 o'clock winds are 'full value' winds that affectively push the bullet the most horizontally. And that winds other than 9 and 3 will have some vertical component in their 'push'.
Almost correct. By the book the 9 and 3 o'clock winds are the ones that push the further horizontally and higher or lower a bullet. They can even push higher or lower than a front or a rear wind.

Sorry; I am full of questions. How many sighters should I be shooting to dope the wind on an ARA target? I usually shoot around 5 shots to foul the barrel and dope the wind before I start the card. But I have not been shooting further sighters, unless I feel the wind is hard to read.
The on million dollar question...
It really depends of your ability to read and shoot in the wind.
The golden rule: in doubt, go to the sighter.
To put it in perspective I had cards with 40~50 shots total, and other with ~30 shots. Those didn't show a stronger or a weaker wind, they mean a more steady wind or not.
 
Dear Pedro,
Very interesting that 3 and 9 winds have vertical push.
The chart by Landy is very cool. I plan on saving that and memorizing it.
The Landy chart answers one of my main questions; that being how much to allow for wind. I understand the chart indicates a 5 mph wind and would need to be adjusted as the wind increases or decreases.
By the way; I know a 'Landy' person, from Cozad, Nebraska. I actually shoot with him at the Lincoln Isaak Walton gun club.
Is this the same person that created that chart? Just curious.
Thanks for your help so far. I will assimilate this information and I might have more questions.
 
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Dear Pedro,
Looking at this chart, it must be that the numbered winds produce the corresponding numbered POI, when the POA is always the dot in the middle. Is that correct?
And the vertical looks different than Landy's chart. Landy does not show vertical for 6 and 12 winds at all. This chart certainly does...that is if I am understanding it correctly.
And is this chart for ARA, or other?
 
Mike, I am sure that "Landy" (Larry Landercasper) person is the one that created the wind rose. He is from the Nebraska area and shoots at Lincoln. Talk to him next time you see him for more details.

Also, a couple of thoughts for your consideration. I shoot sighters to start a card, 4-6 to warm up the system. The prework before a match is to watch your flags, and determine which (green or red) direction is predominant wind direction. I try to find a good hold-off using the predominant wind, using sighters. Once I have 2 or more shots that fall into the 100 ring on sighters, then I will move over and shoot on a record bull, looking for the same wind condition. Also, it's a good habit to move to a sighter whenever you have a miss on a record bull, to find your hold-off again, before shooting more record bulls. It takes time to learn how to "shoot the push". I suggest starting with one wind condition, and see how you do. If you chase different conditions during a match card, it's much harder to score well, in my experience.

Good luck!
 
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RFS99 said:
Mike, I am sure that "Landy" (Larry Landercasper) person is the one that created the wind rose. He is from the Nebraska area and shoots at Lincoln. Talk to him next time you see him for more details.

Also, a couple of thoughts for your consideration. I shoot sighters to start a card, 4-6 to warm up the system. The prework before a match is to watch your flags, and determine which (green or red) direction is predominant wind direction. I try to find a good hold-off using the predominant wind, using sighters. Once I have 2 or more shots that fall into the 100 ring on sighters, then I will move over and shoot on a record bull, looking for the same wind condition. Also, it's a good habit to move to a sighter whenever you have a miss on a record bull, to find your hold-off again, before shooting more record bulls. It takes time to learn how to "shoot the push". I suggest starting with one wind condition, and see how you do. If you chase different conditions during a match card, it's much harder to score well, in my experience.

Good luck!
Click to expand...
Excellent information!
Also, and I have not mentioned this before; all of this wind discussion assumes the shooter has a rifle which shoots into one hole at 50 yards. I do not. More like .30" groups at 50 yards, which of course is not good enough to score 2500 in zero wind. I am not trying to side-track the conversation away from wind, but reading the wind seems to involve learning/understanding the capability of the rifle and ammo also, because when a shot goes out, which was it; the rifle, the ammo, or the wind?
And of course, the other variables involved; not the least of which is the person running the trigger...

One thing I have noticed/learned is that my lack of wind reading skills makes the 'groups' much larger than .30".

I will visit with Larry in Lincoln, in August, during the state shoot, for sure. I have visited with him some already. He is very friendly and approachable.
 
Shooting in the wind puts stress in several aspects other than ability to read the breeze...

There are ammo that shoots better than others in the wind, meaning less drift. This can only be learned practicing with different good ammo. However, nowadays is already a miracle to find a good lot, imagine more than one...

Related to ammo, always look for lower speeds. Higher speeds are better indoors.
But even identical speeds, will show different drifts.

Mike, you talked about a very interesting point to be taken in consideration in the wind, group size. The wind only enlarge that group size. So, the bigger the starting circle, the spreader the results could became.

Barrels and wind drift. Another great aspect. There are barrels that take green or red winds easier than others, and I have barrels that like greens and others that like reds. Being the same brand and specification, I lack knowledge to understand why.
But my approach is simple. Practicing with a plan. Sooner than later you'll realize which type of wind your barrel is happy to shoot in.

The other thing is mental attitude facing windy days. Remember, all the shooters will face the same, so shoot your best and accept what's on target. At the end of the day you may be surprised!
 
Mike, I haven't met Mr. Landercasper but if you shoot matches with him you should take advantage of being able to talk with him. He's been around RFBR for several years. He's always been very free with information on the forums and I feel sure would answer any questions you have.
Todd
 
MikeMcAllister said:
Dear Pedro,
Looking at this chart, it must be that the numbered winds produce the corresponding numbered POI, when the POA is always the dot in the middle. Is that correct?
And the vertical looks different than Landy's chart. Landy does not show vertical for 6 and 12 winds at all. This chart certainly does...that is if I am understanding it correctly.
And is this chart for ARA, or other?
Click to expand...

Yes, this chart shows exactly that, when your POA is at the center.
Indeed, 6 and 12 winds produce a deflection of the bullet, but more range dependent than others winds.
The chart can be used wherever you shoot. At a certain time you won't need it anymore.

Look at the drawing. Typical flag positioning on a range with obstacles.

Tooling the range.jpg

Ref: "The Wind; BR50 Webinars; 2021/12; Serralheiro, Pedro"
 
"Related to ammo, always look for lower speeds. Higher speeds are better indoors.
But even identical speeds, will show different drifts."-Pedro's comment.
-Totally agree. Some lots are just better bucking the wind. You will see this easily by changing lot and compering your aim off (poa) needed.

"Barrels and wind drift. Another great aspect. There are barrels that take green or red winds easier than others, and I have barrels that like greens and others that like reds. Being the same brand and specification, I lack knowledge to understand why."
-Also true. Some barrells shoot wonders in calmer winds, some more steady or predictable in stronger winds. But don't let that fool you as stronger wind tends to hide
possible flyers, as wind pressure affects the bullet flight more strongly.

-Which brings us to unstable bullets...Look at your targets, if you see oval prints on your target, it means your bullet was not stable and picks wind more.
If I see around 1/2" groups indoors for 2 lots. I take them outside, sometimes the tighter grouping lot doesn't "follow my orders", and the other is better or more logical,
one becams my training lot and the other comp lot.

-Try to practice in stronger winds, this brings you more confidence to make POA further off, to get you a good score, instead of wondering where to aim off.
Save calm mornings to check your equipment or tuning.

-Pedro, it could be good advise to all to describe your tuning method. As we use the same idea....

Br Tomi
 
Very interesting points to consider and bring to the discussion table.

Regarding the tuning method I believe we should start a new thread.
 
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