Problem solving... ammo, gear, wind or shooter?

PedroS

Active member
This is our 1st problem solving...

Look at the picture.

001.jpeg


It's the last shot on last card during a National Champs.

The line was like this...

002.jpeg


This particular shooter shot for bottom to top with zigzag. Starting at target 21 and ending at target 5.
Ammo, gear, wind or shooter?

Any thoughts?
 
This is our 1st problem solving...

Look at the picture.

View attachment 5950

It's the last shot on last card during a National Champs.

The line was like this...

View attachment 5951

This particular shooter shot for bottom to top with zigzag. Starting at target 21 and ending at target 5.
Ammo, gear, wind or shooter?

Any thoughts?

Friend PedroS:

Wind doubtful........shooter doubtful......gear doubtful..............and that's an odd placement for a faulty round of ammo.


Could that round have struck a flag?

I'm also not quite sure I follow your zig-zag comment?


BC

PedroS, I also see that the picture doesn't open up with my respond to your post like they would automatically do on the old site....????

You have to click on it.....
 
Shooter closed the bolt and the gun went off?
Shooter touched the trigger prior to being properly aimed?
 
tenex
 

Attachments

  • viber image.jpg
    viber image.jpg
    176.9 KB · Views: 97
  • 0-02-05-26cde2c049f3f9c9593ac9b085dd595e4b8d680ec99f07206a141790d1be59b0_1fd3d228381.jpg
    0-02-05-26cde2c049f3f9c9593ac9b085dd595e4b8d680ec99f07206a141790d1be59b0_1fd3d228381.jpg
    176.6 KB · Views: 95
I like a lot these type of problem solving, because we can learn a lot.

Of course, we can not solve the issue, because we can do nothing to a shot bullet, only taking actions on the next ones to prevent the same thing to happen.
I cannot stress enough that it's no use to continue thinking about an error during a competition. This negative thought will put the shooter in a negative spiral. The right attitude should be... ok, let's do all the next ones, perfect ones!

That said, let's return to this case study.
But 1st answering to Bill what I meant by zigzag. Look at the picture:

Captura de ecrã 2023-07-14, às 18.54.10.jpg

Shooter starts at target 21, and ends at target 5. That way we always put the front rest under pressure, so no lacking on the mechanism, and majority of the movements are horizontal ones.

(Bill, on my laptop the pictures open when I click them)

Let me give you more info... here's the last card a 246 20x...

T3.jpg

Picking Bill's words...
Wind doubtful........shooter doubtful......gear doubtful..............and that's an odd placement for a faulty round of ammo.
I agree, why should else failed on last bullet? And for a faulty ammo the placement is weird...

From LWZ...
Shooter closed the bolt and the gun went off?
Shooter touched the trigger prior to being properly aimed?
Good points too. But then they point to a shooter error, that is doubtful, looking at this target.

And from Aspirin...
A faulty bullet like the photos.
Of course has to be taken in consideration.

I will give you more food for thought...
The 1st and 2nd card... a 250 20x and a 250 22x...

T1.jpg
T2.jpg


They were shot outdoors.
I will comment on all aspects given to try to understand what might have happened.
 
I like a lot these type of problem solving, because we can learn a lot.

Of course, we can not solve the issue, because we can do nothing to a shot bullet, only taking actions on the next ones to prevent the same thing to happen.
I cannot stress enough that it's no use to continue thinking about an error during a competition. This negative thought will put the shooter in a negative spiral. The right attitude should be... ok, let's do all the next ones, perfect ones!

That said, let's return to this case study.
But 1st answering to Bill what I meant by zigzag. Look at the picture:

View attachment 5960
Shooter starts at target 21, and ends at target 5. That way we always put the front rest under pressure, so no lacking on the mechanism, and majority of the movements are horizontal ones.

(Bill, on my laptop the pictures open when I click them)

Let me give you more info... here's the last card a 246 20x...

View attachment 5961
Picking Bill's words...
Wind doubtful........shooter doubtful......gear doubtful..............and that's an odd placement for a faulty round of ammo.
I agree, why should else failed on last bullet? And for a faulty ammo the placement is weird...

From LWZ...
Shooter closed the bolt and the gun went off?
Shooter touched the trigger prior to being properly aimed?
Good points too. But then they point to a shooter error, that is doubtful, looking at this target.

And from Aspirin...
A faulty bullet like the photos.
Of course has to be taken in consideration.

I will give you more food for thought...
The 1st and 2nd card... a 250 20x and a 250 22x...

View attachment 5962View attachment 5963

They were shot outdoors.
I will comment on all aspects given to try to understand what might have happened.
Howdy Pedro,

This is a puzzle, and I like puzzles.

Three spectacular targets at the highest level of competition. That final shot defies what every other shot did.

No, I cannot figure out what happened. Yes, I am more curious than a cat, and I want to learn.

I stared at the picture of the bullet posted by Aspirin in disbelief. I am leaning toward a bad round as well, but I would not know how to prove it once the bullet has hit the target.

I am very interested in what you have to say.

Thank you for starting this conversation.

Take care,

Greg

Edit: Is there any possibility this was a crossfire from another competitor?
 
That's the last shot of the card, coming in from the left.

Finger touching trigger, on final movement ??
 
Thank you for your appreciation of this type of puzzles, as Greg said.

Taking his words, and before trying to solve it...
"Three spectacular targets at the highest level of competition. That final shot defies what every other shot did."

Indeed, so true! That's why my mentor once said; shot your best and just do the maths at the end.

As, I'm the owner of these three cards, I can answer some pretty pertinent questions posted here.

Gear related issue:

Very, very doubtful.
In fact, and can't be seen because the cards were hanged overlapping the right sighters, after that last shot I did a couple extra on the sighters, and all went to the center.
So, I exclude a rifle related issue, and an over the bench gear related too, like front and rear rests.
However it has not been pointed out, but I do like to discuss... potential scope related issues.
I've seen broken reticles, faulty turrets, and big misses because of busy reticles.

Captura de ecrã 2023-07-16, às 08.39.28.png
If you have a busy reticle, and on the competition heat, you aim on the wrong intersection, you are going to miss. This happens more often than not.
I've been there, but not on this case, because after that mistake, all my reticles are crosshairs dot.
All the other scope issues have been ruled out on posterior shots.

Another very pertinent point, now from Bill:
"Could that round have struck a flag?"
Do yourself a favour and put all your flags below the virtual line that goes from your top bench surface to the target bottom. That way you are not only compliant with WRABF/WBSF rules, but you avoid hitting them.
What about flying tails? They are thin and light, but could it be the culprit? Ah..., I don't think it could produce such a huge deviation, but can only tell for sure looking at the tails at the end.
And no, none have been pierced.

Ammo as pointed out by Aspirin:
Those pictures are very worrying. And they came in line with Timo's thread: "ammo from hell"
Can we avoid such an issue? Well, indeed yes, just prior to feed the camera look at the bullets. At least you could ruled out what you see.
I must confess myself that I don't do it all the time. Now I will!
However, all other ammo faults are much harder to see or even impossible before shooting them. Like a match, how do you know it will ignite without trying it?
But looking at the POI of that bullet I must say, very unlikely to be a faulty ammo. Normally either they go up or down, but, so much to one side and just one line down? I don't know. And we'll never know. However the odds are against.

Shooter related issues:

We are humans, so anything can happen. And, majority of the times the misses are shooter related but dismissed by the typical excuses.
Glad some have been pointed out!

From LWZ:
"Shooter closed the bolt and the gun went off?"
This a common mistake, and denotes either a very nervous shooter, where movement control is lost to a certain degree (this is a very interesting topic, that we can discuss on a different thread), or a gear issue, namely a hard closing bolt.
Hard closing bolts have two main big issues; 1st disturbing rifle alignment and 2nd, the one referred.
Both situations excluded!

"Shooter touched the trigger prior to being properly aimed?"
and also from Trazor:
"That's the last shot of the card, coming in from the left. Finger touching trigger, on final movement ??"
Yes, it could be, but didn't happen.
In fact this is also a common mistake showing a lack of proper shooting technique. The firing finger should never be close to the trigger when moving the rifle, only when aiming starts. I still put it off, when I'm waiting for a condition, or relocating the reticle to a different POA. Don't ask how I learned... but not in this case.

Still, one missing link to be discussed... wind.
For the ease of explanation, and due to flag colours, lets consider a right coming wind, a green one, and a left coming wind, a red one.

If I rewind that last shot, I went to it with 74 clear shots. If I hit a 10 or a 9 I'll became HV National Champ. Even a good mental stamina cannot forget that. And, indeed, it surfed my mind. I learned, when something else comes to my mind that's not aiming and wind reading, to stop. And it was what I did. I stopped, recomposed, looked at the condition and waited for the right moment. I even shot an X on the right sighter before.
A little bit more about that particular windy day, and about my bench location.
Wind conditions were tricky and faulty. Not a very strong wind, but constantly changing, with progressive increasing bursts, mainly green. Red conditions were dominant, but revolving to green fast.
Bench location, later realised, was facing a breach from right, meaning no trees or walls protected.
Remember another Timo's threads, where I asked if he also suffers from strange green winds that are pulling left and down the bullets, against the "normal" left and up? I don't have an explanation for that, but some other great shooters are saying, and suffering, lately, from the very same.

The more I look at that shot the more I do believe it was a shooter error not facing a quick and strong green wind burst, coupled with that bench location, allowing the wind to produce the effect very close to the muzzle, and also coming downwards.

So, green wind burst close to the muzzle will pull the bullet far left as expected - a 6 in the target
Green winds trends are changing from up to down, and that breach allows a downward wind - one line bellow on target

I did two errors, not realising on that day, the particular tricky bench position to anticipate a potential wind coming from that right breach, and not being able to detect that green right burst.

Is this the solution for this puzzle?
I believe yes, but can't be 100% certain.


What I learned from this analysis:
. carefully study your bench position
. control what you can control
. anticipate any 1st tail flag movement
. always have fun


Hope you enjoyed this problem solving, even it might end without a solution...

Bring yours, it's fun and we all can learn.
 
Last edited:
Pedro,

I think you have done an outstanding job of analyzing what happened to that shot. Not many shooters would be willing to face the ugly fact that they were at least part of the problem.

The important part of this lesson is we can't become better shooters until we take responsibility for our own errors.

We all should follow your lead.

TKH
 
Ok,
Can you remeber you hold off for that shot?
Looks to me like bullet hitting completetly to oppsite side that was intended.
Happens some times,when strong changing winds blow, and then you still want to check your poi, disturbing your other eyes vision
to flags. After the shot you realize that wind had suddenly changed 180 degrees on "commanding" flag. Bullet goes on the wrong
side of crosshairs.
Done that, been there.
Just one possibility of what happened.
BR Tomi
 
Tomi, for sure it was an expected wind burst.
I was holding around 5pm, because green wind was there but not strong...

I found fascinating trying to understand what we missed so badly. I learn from my internal medicine director, when I was still a resident, if a doubt surfs your head, study until it goes away.
 
Back
Top Bottom