Where will they come from?

Bill Calfee

Gun Fool
Where will they come from?

CYA accuracy fool friends:

The world of rimfire accuracy advancement desperately needs more "quality" MD-PAS ignition RFBR actions....

A few minutes ago I got to see the equipment list for this year's ARA St Louis National....


Of the 125 competitors in attendance, 92 shot SAP ignition actions.........
But the first three places were by shooters using MD-PAS ignition actions:
1..Greg Monore, 2..Greg Hissong and 3..Mike Lowe



This is simply another reason why we must have more "Quality" MD-PAS ignition RFBR actions, for the masses, if we're to advance rimfire accuracy into the future..




Your LBK and pistol fool friend, Bill Calfee
 
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Mind blowing....

Seekers of rimfire accuracy advancement:


With 92 competitors shooting SAP ignition actions at the recent ARA St Louis National........out of 125...


The highest finishing SAP ignition shooter was 640 points behind the winner........

640 POINTS........and this is the year 2023....and that wasn't some club match....that was the Biggie of all Biggies in the world of RFBR.



Someway, somehow, we must have more "quality" MD-PAS ignition actions, for the masses, if we're to advance rimfire accuracy into the future.


P1000285 - Copy - Copy - Copy (2).JPG



Your LBK and pistol fool friend, Bill Calfee
 
Mind blowing....

Seekers of rimfire accuracy advancement:


With 92 competitors shooting SAP ignition actions at the recent ARA St Louis National........out of 125...


The highest finishing SAP ignition shooter was 640 points behind the winner........

640 POINTS........and this is the year 2023....and that wasn't some club match....that was the Biggie of all Biggies in the world of RFBR.



Someway, somehow, we must have more "quality" MD-PAS ignition actions, for the masses, if we're to advance rimfire accuracy into the future.


View attachment 6074


Your LBK and pistol fool friend, Bill Calfee
Howdy Bill,

I had not seen the match results.

640 points?!?

Wow.....

Congrats to Greg, Greg, and Mike.

You know, I've never met them, but I'm guessing two of those guys are good looking and smart and ladies love'em! Maybe all three.

Well, sounds good anyway!

640 points.....wow!

Take care,

Greg

P.S. Any word from the HEROES? Left bolt right port would be nice. Just thinking out loud.
 
I dont know are Walther kk500 and G&E actions available to get wthout barrel?

Mr Botta did well 2022 on World Champioship and if I remember right he used G&E action. Pedro can confirm this.

750/64 X to 50 meter outside is something.

www.fltas.lu/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/2022-09-16-wrc-result.pdf

Last week I ordered Midas+ ammo from Lapua Test Center here and asked from test shooter and center keeper Mr Veijo Sivula has there been RF:s with good accuracy in this summer.Every day he is making batch tests to prone shooters & biathlon shooters RF.s.
RFBR guys mostly go themself to test.

Veijo said that 2 pretty new Walther kk500 prone rifle is coming to his mind.

He always shoot first 2 x 10 shot groups to 50 meter with each lot from linear guided test bench and those 2 Walther kk500 shooted both 10 shot groups <10 mm outside to outside measured.(< 0,394" outside to outside measured).

I dont know what barrels Walther use nowadays,but if Walther / G&E are selling their actions why not give more chance and high quality RFBR smith making rest of RFBR guns to their actions?

If and because it is so hard to get well known RFBR actions?

BR, Timo
 
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Hi friends. I have already discussed this topic with Walther Germany

For Germany, ordering spare parts is only possible through a gunsmith

price inquiry

Part number

2820056 EUR 577

2820021 EUR 451.70

2809702 EUR 549

The topic has already been discussed in another forum.
It was told from different people that the experiments did not produce good results. Especially for the American market Walther builds actions with 3 Lug, where the barrel is fixed with screws.
For the European market those actions will be shrunk.
This makes it difficult to change barrels.
You would have to thread the action.
So you can build your own custom made Kk500
Andy Marth
German Br Shooters
 
I dont know are Walther kk500 and G&E actions available to get wthout barrel?

Mr Botta did well 2022 on World Champioship and if I remember right he used G&E action. Pedro can confirm this.

750/64 X to 50 meter outside is something.

www.fltas.lu/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/2022-09-16-wrc-result.pdf

Last week I ordered Midas+ ammo from Lapua Test Center here and asked from test shooter and center keeper Mr Veijo Sivula has there been RF:s with good accuracy in this summer.Every day he is making batch tests to prone shooters & biathlon shooters RF.s.
RFBR guys mostly go themself to test.

Veijo said that 2 pretty new Walther kk500 prone rifle is coming to his mind.

He always shoot first 2 x 10 shot groups to 50 meter with each lot from linear guided test bench and those 2 Walther kk500 shooted both 10 shot groups <10 mm outside to outside measured.(< 0,394" outside to outside measured).

I dont know what barrels Walther use nowadays,but if Walther / G&E are selling their actions why not give more chance and high quality RFBR smith making rest of RFBR guns to their actions?

If and because it is so hard to get well known RFBR actions?

BR, Timo

Indeed, both World champs, 2018 and 2022, have been won with G&E actions. Mine, 2018, with a Shilen barrel fitted by G&E, and I do believe Botta's, 2022, also with a Shilen barrel.
Don't know about Walther, but G&E fits special barrels by demand. Never asked if they sell only the action, but don't know any European gunsmith that will fit a barrel to the G&E Racer3 action. To my knowledge, it's the most complex action on the market, with a property vibration absorption system.
Not going on the debate of pros and cons of different actions, G&E is by far the most smooth and truly a "Swiss watch".
 
Indeed, both World champs, 2018 and 2022, have been won with G&E actions. Mine, 2018, with a Shilen barrel fitted by G&E, and I do believe Botta's, 2022, also with a Shilen barrel.
Don't know about Walther, but G&E fits special barrels by demand. Never asked if they sell only the action, but don't know any European gunsmith that will fit a barrel to the G&E Racer3 action. To my knowledge, it's the most complex action on the market, with a property vibration absorption system.
Not going on the debate of pros and cons of different actions, G&E is by far the most smooth and truly a "Swiss watch".
Pedro,

You are one of very few that have shot Turbo's, 2500"s, and G&E actions in RFBR.

It would be very interesting to hear your opinion on how they perform back-to-back. The pluses and the minuses of each.

Years ago, one we had a shooter that had a Shilen barrel fitted to a Racer action. He shot it quite a bit but without much success. Eventually went back to a Calfee built Turbo. But that was a single test. Maybe it is time to revisit that effort?

TKH
 
Friend 404tbang:

Here's your last post:

___________________________________
Howdy Bill,

I had not seen the match results.

640 points?!?

Wow.....

Congrats to Greg, Greg, and Mike.

You know, I've never met them, but I'm guessing two of those guys are good looking and smart and ladies love'em! Maybe all three.

Well, sounds good anyway!

640 points.....wow!

Take care,

Greg

P.S. Any word from the HEROES? Left bolt right port would be nice. Just thinking out loud.
_________________________________


Greg, it's looking like the HERO'S are our only hope for getting more "quality" MD-PAS ignition actions, for the masses, if we're to advance rimfire accuracy into the future....

We simply can't do it with any form of SAP ignition...

P1000285 - Copy - Copy - Copy (2) - Copy.JPG


I mean, 92 SAP ignition shooters out of the 125 at the 2023 ARA St Louis National, and the top three places were won by MD-PAS ignition shooters...

With the closes SAP ignition shooter 640 points behind.......................!!!!!!


No Greg, SAP ignition simply isn't going to advance rimfire accuracy into the future......

So we're stuck if the HERO'S don't come through....



BC



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Pedro,

You are one of very few that have shot Turbo's, 2500"s, and G&E actions in RFBR.

It would be very interesting to hear your opinion on how they perform back-to-back. The pluses and the minuses of each.

Years ago, one we had a shooter that had a Shilen barrel fitted to a Racer action. He shot it quite a bit but without much success. Eventually went back to a Calfee built Turbo. But that was a single test. Maybe it is time to revisit that effort?

TKH

Tony, I could add to that list Bleiker and Anschutz 2013 as well.

Disclaimer: this is my opinion based on my experience

As I don't have a scientific and accurately way to measure things like ignition capability, sample variation (too few to have any statistical meaning), I won't discuss those. Also, I noted the score ability (#14) of those different actions is much dependent on barrels. Bleikers and Grunig (G&E) are a nightmare to change a barrel. No European gunsmith will do it, so you'll have to rely on factory work, both Switzerland located. Approaching Grunig and Bleiker is easy and they do respond. They will do what you demand, but the waiting list can be over 1 year. Cost is very high too. Anschutz 2013 is a nightmare action, because the barrel fixing way is flawed from the beginning making beddings unreliable too. However, changing a barrel, including indexing, is a breeze.
You know me. I'm a pragmatic shooter. Either it works or not. Time also plays a role, and having a barrel change in 3 months or 1 year can make a difference. Cost is related to my budget planning, and of course, the higher the actions will be, the less I'll have for other things...
Another thing to bear in mind is the difference of round vs square actions. Turbo and 2500 are round, G&E, Bleiker and Anschutz 2013 are square. Square actions make bedding much harder to do well. However both G&E and Bleiker have both, a very sturdy and plain bedding surface. For some elusive reason both G&E and Bleiker work much better on aluminium stocks, maybe because they were born for prone shooting.
Also, G&E and Bleiker, only if you ask for a special barrel, they will came prepared for prone shooting, with barrel specificities that we don't need/want for BR.

So, rather than saying the pluses and the minuses for each one, I will give my opinion based on the below characteristics:
  1. Cost (low - high)
    • Anschutz 2013; Turbo and 2500; Bleiker; G&E
  2. Product quality (best - worst)
    • G&E; Bleiker; 2500 and Anschutz 2013; Turbo
  3. Operation smoothness (best - worst)
    • G&E; Bleiker and 2500; Anschutz 2013; Turbo
  4. Bedding capability (best - worst)
    • Turbo and 2500; G&E and Bleiker; Anschutz 2013
  5. Customisation (easy - difficult)
    • Turbo and 2500; Anschutz 2013; G&E and Bleiker
  6. Barrel exchange (easy - difficult)
    • Anschutz 2013; Turbo and 2500; Bleiker; G&E
  7. Ammo feeding (easy - difficult)
    • 2500 and Anschutz 2013; Turbo; G&E; Bleiker
  8. Extraction (best - worst)
    • Anschutz 2013 and G&E; Turbo; Bleiker
  9. Trigger options (many - few)
    • Turbo and 2500; Anschutz 2013 and G&E and Bleiker
  10. Action maintenance (easy - difficult)
    • Turbo and 2500; Anschutz 2013; G&E and Bleiker
  11. Bolt maintenance (easy - difficult)
    • Anschutz 2013; G&E and Bleiker; Turbo; 2500
  12. Complexity (low - high)
    • Anschutz 2013; Turbo and 2500; Bleiker; G&E
  13. Customer service (best - worst)
    • G&E and Bleiker; 2500; Turbo and Anschutz 2013
  14. Scoring ability (easy - hard)
    • Turbo; 2500 and G&E; Bleiker; Anschutz 2013
 
Tony, I could add to that list Bleiker and Anschutz 2013 as well.

Disclaimer: this is my opinion based on my experience

As I don't have a scientific and accurately way to measure things like ignition capability, sample variation (too few to have any statistical meaning), I won't discuss those. Also, I noted the score ability (#14) of those different actions is much dependent on barrels. Bleikers and Grunig (G&E) are a nightmare to change a barrel. No European gunsmith will do it, so you'll have to rely on factory work, both Switzerland located. Approaching Grunig and Bleiker is easy and they do respond. They will do what you demand, but the waiting list can be over 1 year. Cost is very high too. Anschutz 2013 is a nightmare action, because the barrel fixing way is flawed from the beginning making beddings unreliable too. However, changing a barrel, including indexing, is a breeze.
You know me. I'm a pragmatic shooter. Either it works or not. Time also plays a role, and having a barrel change in 3 months or 1 year can make a difference. Cost is related to my budget planning, and of course, the higher the actions will be, the less I'll have for other things...
Another thing to bear in mind is the difference of round vs square actions. Turbo and 2500 are round, G&E, Bleiker and Anschutz 2013 are square. Square actions make bedding much harder to do well. However both G&E and Bleiker have both, a very sturdy and plain bedding surface. For some elusive reason both G&E and Bleiker work much better on aluminium stocks, maybe because they were born for prone shooting.
Also, G&E and Bleiker, only if you ask for a special barrel, they will came prepared for prone shooting, with barrel specificities that we don't need/want for BR.

So, rather than saying the pluses and the minuses for each one, I will give my opinion based on the below characteristics:
  1. Cost (low - high)
    • Anschutz 2013; Turbo and 2500; Bleiker; G&E
  2. Product quality (best - worst)
    • G&E; Bleiker; 2500 and Anschutz 2013; Turbo
  3. Operation smoothness (best - worst)
    • G&E; Bleiker and 2500; Anschutz 2013; Turbo
  4. Bedding capability (best - worst)
    • Turbo and 2500; G&E and Bleiker; Anschutz 2013
  5. Customisation (easy - difficult)
    • Turbo and 2500; Anschutz 2013; G&E and Bleiker
  6. Barrel exchange (easy - difficult)
    • Anschutz 2013; Turbo and 2500; Bleiker; G&E
  7. Ammo feeding (easy - difficult)
    • 2500 and Anschutz 2013; Turbo; G&E; Bleiker
  8. Extraction (best - worst)
    • Anschutz 2013 and G&E; Turbo; Bleiker
  9. Trigger options (many - few)
    • Turbo and 2500; Anschutz 2013 and G&E and Bleiker
  10. Action maintenance (easy - difficult)
    • Turbo and 2500; Anschutz 2013; G&E and Bleiker
  11. Bolt maintenance (easy - difficult)
    • Anschutz 2013; G&E and Bleiker; Turbo; 2500
  12. Complexity (low - high)
    • Anschutz 2013; Turbo and 2500; Bleiker; G&E
  13. Customer service (best - worst)
    • G&E and Bleiker; 2500; Turbo and Anschutz 2013
  14. Scoring ability (easy - hard)
    • Turbo; 2500 and G&E; Bleiker; Anschutz 2013
Pedro,

Thank you for your summary. You may be the only source of this type of information anywhere in the world. If I'm wrong, I would really like others to chime in.

Here in the states, we kind of stick to simple solutions and they may not always be the best.

I think you will agree our actions are far simpler and easier for the hobbyist to work on than any of the European offerings.

But it may be time for us to look at other perhaps more sophisticated designs if we are to move forward.

After the release of the Anschutz 54 Super Match, Anschutz said there would be no more advances in rimfire accuracy until the ammo was improved.

Here we are again thinking the same thing. I hope we are wrong.

TKH
 
Pedro wrote:

"Another thing to bear in mind is the difference of round vs square actions. Turbo and 2500 are round, G&E, Bleiker and Anschutz 2013 are square. Square actions make bedding much harder to do well. However both G&E and Bleiker have both, a very sturdy and plain bedding surface. For some elusive reason both G&E and Bleiker work much better on aluminium stocks, maybe because they were born for prone shooting."

Our RFBR smiths dont like square actions because they havent find the way how to make bedding perfect.If someone knows please tell !

And one now retired gunsmith change lot of actions with "screw thread". Different brands. Also near all those old Diana actions where barrels were with"tin" when those come from factory.

I have lot of fun when my friend can "bully" our "big dogs" with his "out of box" Diana actioned RF.

Not world class but he shooted 750/60 X on inside range competition here and one time won outside Nationals when his wind reading goes good level.

But everybody knows that you cant give up with poor equipments and now waiting times to competative equipments are much too long.
How big part is this that we have difficulties to get newbies to this excellent RFBR shooting sport?
Need "cows nerve" to wait and then be disappointed when heard that equipment is not coming at all like we can read "cases".

BR, Timo
 
Pedro,

Thank you for your summary. You may be the only source of this type of information anywhere in the world. If I'm wrong, I would really like others to chime in.

Here in the states, we kind of stick to simple solutions and they may not always be the best.

I think you will agree our actions are far simpler and easier for the hobbyist to work on than any of the European offerings.

But it may be time for us to look at other perhaps more sophisticated designs if we are to move forward.

After the release of the Anschutz 54 Super Match, Anschutz said there would be no more advances in rimfire accuracy until the ammo was improved.

Here we are again thinking the same thing. I hope we are wrong.

TKH

Tony,

European actions, at least the ones mentioned are great pieces of machinery with very close tolerances and a craftsmanship second to none.
The best ones, by far, both in terms of rationale and quality are the Swiss ones, G&E and Bleiker.
I never owned a 54:30 super match, but shot and worked on same. The major difference from the previous 54 actions is a smaller print, a threaded barrel, instead of pined, and a prismatic upper part, but with round base for a simpler bedding.
Never shot one that could deliver better than the previous, and from my perspective all that I shot would benefit from a barrel change. Not that Anschutz barrels are bad, on the contrary, but they are too long for BR.
Anschutz have released what they call the final action, the 22 max (see link below).
Can only speculate, as I didn't saw or shot any, but it looks like just a very optimised linear one, with a much clever closing bolt. It breaths ISSF disciplines where the smallest hand bolt movement is a most.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=https://m.facebook.com/OfficialAnschuetz/videos/ansch%C3%BCtz-22max-premium-smallbore-rifle/214176807843848/&psig=AOvVaw0OrHxy9A0oD7if7CHyM_3S&ust=1695108359762000&source=images&cd=vfe&opi=89978449&ved=0CBAQjRxqFwoTCMie-O7Qs4EDFQAAAAAdAAAAABAE

One aspect that I'm seeing, and of course can be wrong, is the ability to overheat due to its smallish size. BR cadence/time is much higher than prone shooting, and being so small, doesn't have much metal to dissipate heat. Not that rimfire works with much heat, but it builds up quite fast, and if shot in hot days, maybe a source of trouble.
Answering to your question, Tony, I don't see it as the ultimate action.

I do believe also, if we want to move forward, a totally new action design should be done. And it can't be simple and easy to work with, because, those we already have.
European actions deserve a try, I mean a serious one. The big issue to overcome is having gunsmiths able to work on them.
G&E and Bleiker actions are complex ones, but their bolts are simpler and much more clever designed. They both have 3 lugs, on the bolt head, instead on the rear. Their operation smoothness is a dream, and imagine, in a couple of minutes you can change headspace on the range!
Cost is another burden, and being European, in the US, they are even more expensive.
G&E is harder to change a barrel, but better designed and sturdier than Bleiker.
Both triggers are top notch, equal or better than FF BR2.1, but not interchangeable. Bleiker one tends to suffer with dirt, G&E is bullet proof.
 
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Pedro wrote:

"Another thing to bear in mind is the difference of round vs square actions. Turbo and 2500 are round, G&E, Bleiker and Anschutz 2013 are square. Square actions make bedding much harder to do well. However both G&E and Bleiker have both, a very sturdy and plain bedding surface. For some elusive reason both G&E and Bleiker work much better on aluminium stocks, maybe because they were born for prone shooting."

Our RFBR smiths dont like square actions because they havent find the way how to make bedding perfect.If someone knows please tell !

And one now retired gunsmith change lot of actions with "screw thread". Different brands. Also near all those old Diana actions where barrels were with"tin" when those come from factory.

I have lot of fun when my friend can "bully" our "big dogs" with his "out of box" Diana actioned RF.

Not world class but he shooted 750/60 X on inside range competition here and one time won outside Nationals when his wind reading goes good level.

But everybody knows that you cant give up with poor equipments and now waiting times to competative equipments are much too long.
How big part is this that we have difficulties to get newbies to this excellent RFBR shooting sport?
Need "cows nerve" to wait and then be disappointed when heard that equipment is not coming at all like we can read "cases".

BR, Timo

Timo,

Ricardo, one of my Team shooting fellows, does very good square beddings. He develop a method, incorporating a 7075 aluminium base on the bedding, achieving a perfect stable and rectified base for the actions. The weight is higher but with a clever wood selection LV class is no big deal.
So, yes, square bedding can be made perfect, but more harder and expensive to achieve.
That said, actions, like G&E and Bleiker can shoot perfectly forever. However the Anschutz 2013 trouble will remain, because every time you change or reclamp the barrel, the action will distort in a different way.
Some years ago, an European gunsmith, unfortunately passed away, did the final customisation to it. He opened the action, inserted a threaded sleeve, glued and clamped. Afterwards, he rectified the action base on a mill. This way, changing barrels is like the others threaded actions, the purpose of barrel changing simplicity being lost, thought.
 
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Gone with the wind...

No form of SAP ignition is capable of advancing rimfire accuracy into the future.

WE ALREADY HAD WHAT WE NEED......AND NOW IT'S GONE WITH THE WIND.

DSC09687 (2) - Copy.JPG



Pardon my language, but, HOW IN THE HELL DID WE LET THIS THING GET AWAY FROM US?

My LORD, don't fix what's not broke..................

And it wasn't broke..............

I repeat: No form of SAP ignition is capable of advancing rimfire accuracy into the future...

BC
 
What is real situation with Turbos / Anthony? If /because there is demand to Turbo V-3 why Anthony is not making those anymore?

If /because demand is bigger than production can he employ high quality machinist to helping him?

Or maybe licence production to other company?

BR, Timo
 
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What is real situation with Turbos / Anthony? If /because there is demand to Turbo V-3 why Anthony is not making those anymore?

If /because demand is bigger than production cant he employ high quality machinist to helping him?

Or maybe licence production to other company?

BR, Timo
Timo,
situation with Anthony at this time is a mystery... Specially regarding the V3 actions.

I really don't have any idea about how many shooters / gunsmiths are waiting their actions or complete rifle builds since more than a year... But I'm sure they are a lot waiting, really a lot!

I my opinion licencing the production to another quality company will be the clever way to go forward...
Turbos, specially the V3 are really a "must have" at the moment, meanwhile i have my own doubts that everyone who want them will really get them on time for their "projects" by the obvious reasons... It's sad but true!

But... I'm also pretty sure that something new will come out sooner or later! Also people have some other very good options in the market as you and Pedro talked in other post, as everyone know rifles don't win alone... the shooter still counts (hopefully).


Ricardo S
 
There is no need for licensing etc. Anyone who truly has the ability can look at the design and build a similar or better version. 10X built many, Holeshot has built a run etc. The big issue is that there is really not much money in it for the work involved. If you add up the hours, a normal machine shop cannot even come close to meeting shop labor on it. It has to be a dedicated soul that really wants to build actions to do it. Then when they do, the next thing that happens is some groups berate them and makes their life tough. Look at how much crap both 10X and Stiller put up with from some naysayers.

I'm sure the sport will survive fine as is or with new suppliers. There are good options out there currently. You just have to use them.
 
Friend Serapio

I quote from your last post:

"Turbos, specially the V3 are really a "must have" at the moment,"


Friend Serapio, you're 100% correct....."quality" V-3's or its clone(s), are a "must have" if rimfire accuracy is to be advanced into the future.


No form of SAP ignition is capable of advancing rimfire accuracy into the future as the past 25 years have demonstrated, including the recent ARA St Louis National where the closes SAP action ran 640 points off the pace...

640 points!



The Number one question still remains: Where are these "must have" actions going to come from?


______________________________

DSC09687 (2) - Copy.JPG


Your LBK and pistol fool friend, Bill Calfee
 
640 points.......and this is 2023...

Seekers of rimfire accuracy advancement:

640 points.......and this is 2023.........how embarrassing this has to be for the world of SAP ignition.

I mean, this is 2023........92 SAP shooters couldn't come closer than 640 points!


BC
 
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